Do You Need a Book? A Podcast? TikTok? Finding the right marketing strategy.
Show Notes
Do you own a small rural or regional business and feel bogged down or just completely overwhelmed by the thought of marketing? Do you use Facebook or Instagram, but aren't sure where to turn, to take your business to the next level and build your community?
Top social media and marketing consultant, Jenn Donovan has recently released a book; Small town, Big impact: 107 Simple Marketing Strategies for Regional Business Success.
Jenn is a country girl, who lives in Yarrawonga, NSW. So she actually understands rural and regional life. In this episode, we discuss
Why you should't be afraid of sending emails to your list
How to create a lead generator (for emails)
The difference between posting on social media and a social media strategy
How to decide if you should be adding Tik Tok, a book or even a podcast into your suite of marketing channels
Is Twitter (or X, as it's known these days) a dead channel these days?!
Would you like to sponsor an episode? Get in touch to promote your business on our podcast. Email: ducksonthepond.podcast@gmail.com
We also do collaboration series - we'd love to hear your idea!
This podcast is brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co (We can help YOU make a podcast!)
-
Jen Donovan: 0:06
You just can't go into a group every week and go buy my stuff. People like bugger off. You've got to lead with that value and build that community, become that person that people trust. When Facebook pushes something or Instagram pushes something or any social media platform, that should be your little light bulb moment in your head to go. I need to do more of that.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:29
Hello, welcome to Ducks on the Pond brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co. I'm Kirsten Diprose. Do you own a small rural or regional business and feel bogged down or just completely overwhelmed by the thought of marketing? Do you use Facebook or Instagram but aren't sure where to turn to take your business to the next level and build your community? Well, we have the person to help you. Top social media and marketing consultant, Jen Donovan, has recently released a book called Small Town, big Impact 107 Simple Marketing Strategies for Regional Business Success. Jen is a country girl, so actually understands rural and regional life. In this chat we also discuss the power of email marketing, podcasting, whether writing a book is a good idea and I ask what the heck happened to Twitter I mean X. These days Jen's enthusiasm is infectious, so you'll love this episode and I reckon you'll come away with a few new marketing ideas yourself. Maybe not 107, but a decent handful.
Jen Donovan: 1:40
So here's Jen. I am a marketer and I sleep, breathe, dream, yell about, sprout, about marketing, for anyone who will listen, but I'm a rural girl. I've always been a rural girl. I grew up on a farm, farmer's daughter. Now I'm a farmer's wife. I'm the worst farmer's wife, though, but that's a totally different conversation to be having.
Jen Donovan: 2:01
I'm not very good at being a farmer's wife and I just sort of looked around and there was really no marketing books directed to rural and regional small businesses. It's different to marketing a business in, you know, a really metropolitan area, and so that's what kind of set myself on that path of well, I can't expect anyone else to write it, maybe I'll write it, and so that's what I sort of knuckled down and did last year. I have to tell you, though, writing a book, like most people, has kind of been something in the back of my head, but it was never part of my plan for 2023. I said yes to an opportunity, and a book came flowing from that opportunity. Other than that, I do lots of marketing, keynotes and talks and workshops. I don't do people's marketing for them. I help them with their strategy. I'm kind of a marketing strategist because so many business owners don't have a plan, stan, and they kind of need that plan.
Kirsten Diprose: 2:58
Now, your book is not just called Small Town, Big Impact. It's 107 Simple Marketing Strategies for Regional Business Success. Are there really 107 marketing strategies out there?
Jen Donovan: 3:13
Yeah, there are, and you know what there's probably more. Originally there was 123, but as I started writing the book, it was kind of like, well, I think this one blends into there and that one really blends into there and that one really blends into there. So, yeah, there's 107 strategies, all the way from Threads, which is a brand new sort of app that Meta put out last year, to what, if I want to advertise on local radio, what does that look like as a strategy inside my business? So there's a real mix of different strategies, from digital to offline, what I call the classics, and then a bit more new age ones, such as how do I do an Instagram ad?
Kirsten Diprose: 3:52
So what is a marketing strategy? I feel like we have to go to 101, because everyone knows what social media is, but how is using it different from a strategy?
Jen Donovan: 4:03
I guess, when I say there's 107 marketing strategies, there's 107 marketing ideas, there's 107 different things you can do, and I guess what made me write that book in particular was the fact that I find so many rural and regional small business owners are on Facebook and Instagram and that's it. It's kind of like so what marketing do you do? Oh, I post on Facebook, or I post on Instagram, yep. What else do you do? Oh, no, that's it. And that, for me, is really quite frightening, because I don't know about you, but I see and hear of probably four or five people a week that have either been hacked or have lost their social media or something bad has happened. And if you're a business owner and that happens well, where is your business going to be if you're only marketing to people on a platform you can't control?
Jen Donovan: 4:55
My background is in law, so I have this little saying if you know, don't build empires on crown land. Did a lot of crown land type of work, so it's like don't build your empire on something you cannot control, which is, I guess, where the 107 strategies come in and go. Well, what else can I be doing then, jen, if you don't want me just on social media. You've got to help me out with some other types of strategies, but, as I call myself a marketing strategist, I'm talking about like an overarching strategy, so not really the doing. I'm talking about an overarching strategy, so not really the doing. I'm talking about how much of your marketing is focused on getting engagement, how much of your marketing is focused on brand awareness, how much is focused on actually getting a sale. You know, et cetera, et cetera, lead generation and growth, and so they're sort of my five strategies. So that's where I talk about that as a marketing strategist, as opposed to 107 marketing ideas which are in the book.
Kirsten Diprose: 5:50
I think a lot of people will be listening and going oh no, I just do Facebook and Instagram. But I suppose it's about how you use them as well, because there's so many different ways to use them and knowing why you're using them. Facebook what's with Facebook at the moment? Because I think it's really difficult for anyone to get any traction there.
Jen Donovan: 6:14
Yeah, facebook, it's been like that for a little while, if I'm honest. But I also think it comes down to our strategy. For instance, I will say to people people are like Facebook doesn't work for me anymore. So two things I'll say to them is well, let's have a look at your Google Analytics and see whether Facebook really doesn't work for you anymore. Like, is it sending traffic to your website and you're just not aware of that because you're not getting likes, you're not getting comments, but you're actually getting click-throughs and if you look at your Google Analytics, it's like well, it's actually your second biggest driver to traffic. So it is working.
Jen Donovan: 6:50
And the other thing I say is well, how much time do you spend there not posting? Like, how much time do you spend on the platform commenting on other people's posts, liking other people's posts, sharing other people's posts? Like, you've got to have that reach out strategy. It's kind of you can't be in this silo of well, you know I posted and no one liked it. It's just like yeah, but did you like anyone else's posts? You know?
Kirsten Diprose: 7:11
it's got to be reciprocal, or a lot of people, and I'm guilty of this. I really like Instagram and Facebook not so much, and so I'm often just doing that repost and putting all of my effort into Instagram and then, not Facebook. What's the consequence of doing that? Because I know I'm not alone in that. I see those Facebook posts that are written specifically for Instagram. They're like link in bio and you're like oh, I know what you've done there. Wrong platform, lady or gentleman or person.
Jen Donovan: 7:40
Yeah, exactly. Look again, it depends on what your business model is and what the idea of posting is. But if you are in e-commerce or if you're selling a service which everyone is selling something, if you're in business, I'm not really quite sure why you're in business if you're not trying to sell a service or a product or something like that. Again, look at your Google Analytics.
Jen Donovan: 8:01
I worked with an online retailer not last year, the year before and she had a huge Instagram sort of strategy going. But when we looked at her Google Analytics, Instagram wasn't even in the top five of drivers to traffic to her website. So it's like you need a Facebook strategy and you definitely need an email marketing strategy, because your emails are one of the biggest drivers of traffic to your website and you're just doing it ad hoc. Imagine if you concentrated on that and put a strategy around that and her business has just gone from strength to strength. She's gone from working four days a week in another job to now down to one, because her business has grown that much and she now has the ability to sort of not work so much for somebody else, but come into her own business and work on that.
Kirsten Diprose: 8:50
I love hearing those stories because no doubt that's what she's meant to be doing her love, her passion. So we all benefit. Tell me about email marketing, because everyone talks about how you've got to have email addresses. Again, if all the social media platforms were to fold, at least you've got email addresses. What's an example of an email marketing strategy?
Jen Donovan: 9:12
So I'm a bit of an email marketing lover, so it's probably a tangent now that I'm about to go on. People say that they hate emails, but they really don't. They hate emails that they don't like getting, but the emails that they love getting, they open every single time. Or sometimes email marketing I see even in my own businesses, sometimes just about top of mind marketing. For instance, I have a podcast, small Business Made Simple. Every Friday I send out an email about the new episode that went out on a Thursday. I know that if people don't even open that email, they are so used to getting that email that they go oh Jen must have a new episode out, I'll have to go and have a listen to that. They don't even have to open the email to know what the email is going to be about. They can open it and find out about the podcast. But for me I've instantly put a marketing message in their head as soon as they've seen Jen Donovan come through their email system. They don't even have to open it. So that's pretty powerful when you can sort of have a community that is looking for those emails or understand what the email will contain or give them that reminder. As such. It's a bit like the bird's nest. I don't open every email the bird's nest sends. You know they've got beautiful clothing, but you know when I want to dress or something I will go to their online store because they've reminded me that they're continually there as such. So probably an example of a good email campaign.
Jen Donovan: 10:43
Prior to having a marketing business, I had a retail business in a small country town and email marketing was really powerful for us. So every week we would send out an email and had three elements to it. So I had a kitchenware shop, so there would be a product, either new or something that might've been seen on MasterChef or some sort of product. There would be a recipe of the week, and they were always short, sharp recipes, because I knew my ideal client was busy, busy mums, busy workers. So three or four ingredients and there was a cooking tip. And I didn't make those things up. I stole them off the internet and credited whoever it was that I stole it off and put a link to them, if there was an appropriate link as such.
Jen Donovan: 11:27
But one in particular that I remember was the cooking tip was if you boil water and then you stick your wooden spoon in that boiling water and take it out and smell it. If it smells, then it's time for a new wooden spoon, because it's got diseases in it. It's got, you know, things in it that it shouldn't have as such. So, guess what? My product of the week was Wooden spoons. Guess, who sold out of wooden spoons that week? Me, like you know.
Jen Donovan: 11:53
It was kind of like they were marketed to without being marketed to. They didn't realize that they were being marketed to by, you know, giving an exercise in a wooden spoon, but they were, and it's kind of that. So it's community building, it's giving away some things for free, some tips and tricks. People brought in their wooden spoons. People told me how much their wooden spoon smelled. It really did create a bit of a funny story that lasted for weeks and weeks. So I think that one of the keys to a good email marketing campaign is not to sell, sell, sell. Like we hate being sold to all the time. So you've got to think about how else can you nurture these people until they are ready to buy from you or ready to buy again from you. And email marketing is a great place to nurture people. That has a much bigger, higher conversion rate than social media. Like I say, people say they hate emails, but they just hate the emails they don't like getting.
Kirsten Diprose: 12:49
I think this will be really interesting for people, because, yeah, you're right, the statistics show that email marketing is a fantastic way of actually converting clients or sales. I think, though, a lot of us are afraid of sending too many emails. I think, oh well, how many is too much? Or is there any kind of metric on that? We don't want to fill someone's inbox to the point that they go oh you know, unsubscribe. You're always there.
Jen Donovan: 13:16
It's really annoying, I think, if you're providing value, I think you'd be hard pressed to annoy someone through email that's just sending them daily or hourly or something like that. But if you're providing value, then I think people are a little bit more tolerable with email. For me it's got to be around once a week, once a fortnight, otherwise everyone's inboxes are too busy. You're not getting that top of mind marketing. You won't get the good click throughs because you're just not reminding them enough that you are there.
Jen Donovan: 13:48
Potentially you could send something through monthly, but again, I find that people who send monthly emails they're so long Know your ideal client short, sharp, out, like if they are busy people, they haven't got time to read a five minute email or a 10 minute email. They're likely to skim. And again, if you're creating a long email, you've got to know how to create it so that if they're skimming you can still get the message across. And quarterly, that's just. You might as well not even do it really Like it's just so long in the tooth. Yeah, so for me it's got to be weekly or fortnightly, monthly at a stretch.
Kirsten Diprose: 14:25
What about newsletters, though? Is that different? Can you be a bit longer there?
Jen Donovan: 14:30
Yeah, I think you can be, and that's probably something that you would send out. You wouldn't send out a big long newsletter every week as such A. You probably haven't got time to create that content for a start. But also you've got to know your ideal client. How much time are they willing to give you? Is there really good information in a long newsletter that they're kind of like, yeah, I'm willing to sit down and have a read of this because I really like this business, this brand, and their newsletters always got some great information for me. I think you can do it.
Jen Donovan: 15:00
But if you're just sending rubbish or you're just sending for the sake of sending, that's where you get big unsubscribes. But unsubscribing aren't a bad thing. Unsubscribing are actually a good thing. You only want people on your list who want to hear from you. A big unsubscribe means that there's either a tech problem or a marketing problem, and you have to really look into that. If your unsubscribe is somewhere around over 15% for one email or something, that means that maybe something in the tech has gone wrong. But otherwise, you only want people on your list that want to hear from you, and I know.
Jen Donovan: 15:35
Quite a few years ago I had an acquaintance who I would actually call a friend, to be honest, unsubscribe from my list, and I was devastated. I was like, oh no, why would they unsubscribe? And then, a week later, they commented on my Instagram post. I'm like, yeah, a big lesson there. They just don't want to hear from me in their inbox, but they still follow me on social media and they're still interested in what I do. They just don't want me in their inbox and so okay, no worries, we're still friends. I'm happy with that. So unsubscribing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Don't go looking at them too often, though, because otherwise you'll end up like me, really sad because someone unsubscribed. That has upset you. But you do need to look at them a little bit just to make sure that you aren't getting big chunks of unsubscribe, which could end up to be a tech problem.
Kirsten Diprose: 16:22
And that acquaintance or friend example. It's with social media. I always say you're not creating your social media for your friends as a business. You might be with your personal one, but it's the same with your email list, you know, a friend might follow you for a little bit to help you get started and then they might disappear later and that's okay because they're not really your client, they're actually just a friend.
Jen Donovan: 16:44
Yes, exactly, and you want to create content for people who will one day do business with you. You're not creating content for your competition or for your mom or your dad or something like that. You're creating content for someone who will one day come and do business with you Exactly.
Kirsten Diprose: 17:00
I'm thinking about newsletters, because I have a newsletter. It goes out once a month and I'm too afraid to do email marketing yet. I'm so worried that I'll make people turn off. But you're convincing me otherwise. So I do a newsletter where I talk about ducks on the pond and you get the latest episodes and any blogs I've written. But I do a kind of what I'm listening to, podcast wise, and I pick things from all over, always including something rural and regional. But I'll do true crime, human interest comedy and it's just like a really brief bang of here's some podcast recommendations. So it's for podcast lovers and I started the newsletter for the same reason. I've started this podcast, which was just because I really wanted to. So I've got a problem where I come from content first and then any kind of sales and things. I think, oh, I don't know, I just want people to listen to it and read it, but that doesn't really make any money.
Jen Donovan: 17:57
Yeah and like, look, I think value upfront is definitely a great thing and it is the way we have. Well, some of us have started our businesses and things like that, but at the end of the day, we are in business to make money. So how can you monetize other parts of your business? Like look at that product architecture within your business. Not everything has to make you money.
Jen Donovan: 18:19
My podcast, you know I do every single week. I'm in year five, actually year six of my podcast, so I've just ticked over five years of my podcast and absolutely it brings in leads, it builds my community. People often laugh at reading my book because they've listened to my podcast for so long. They can actually hear me in my book you know reading to them because they know my voice so well. So that to me is incredible. Like, over and above money is creating that community of referrals, potentially buyers. But I've got other products in my product architecture that are to make me money and the podcast is perhaps sits at the lead generation side of my strategy rather than the sales side of my strategy.
Kirsten Diprose: 19:05
So back to emailing. So we understand that that's very important. How do we get an email list to start with?
Jen Donovan: 19:13
Yeah, don't buy one. I was actually going to have a bit of a joke and say we'll just go buy one. I thought if someone stops the podcast right there they might realize that I'm joking. So I then not say that.
Jen Donovan: 19:24
But I guess lead magnets are a big thing, like creating a lead magnet in your business or giving away some content for free in exchange for an email address. So it could be a little series of videos, it could be a PDF checklist. It has to be something of value that your ideal client is like. I need that. That will solve one of my problems and I'm willing to exchange an email address for that.
Jen Donovan: 19:50
So that's probably one of the most unique ways or best ways to build your email list. You can do competitions and things like that. You've just got to be careful at the prize that you offer. I came across an accountant many years ago who was running a competition on social media and the prize was an iPad and I kind of thought to myself, well, that's a bit silly, because everyone wants the iPad. No one wants the accountant Like. You're better off to offer an overview of someone's tax or, you know, a three hour strategy session with them or something that related to their business, so that you only attract the people on your email list that are most likely to buy from you in the past. Because, again, you only want to create content for those people, whereas lots of people would have liked the iPad and already had an account.
Kirsten Diprose: 20:39
Yeah, it's not about numbers. It's always about actual potential clients. Yes, so you mentioned the podcast as well. Obviously, I'm biased. I think podcasting is a great way to market. What have you found about podcasting in terms of your research and who you work with? Who do you recommend podcasting for? Because it's probably not for everyone.
Jen Donovan: 21:03
So my podcast is ranked in the top 1.5% globally. So that sounds like an amazing statistic, but I think the reality is I'm in year six with my podcast and that is why my podcast ranks so high on a global scale, because the average podcast has 17 episodes in it. So the average person who decides I'm going to start a podcast gets 17 episodes in and goes oh, this is a lot of work and they give up. They might give up at 90 episodes, they might give up at three episodes.
Kirsten Diprose: 21:35
There's a significant number of just three episodes, which skews the whole data. A lot of people just release three episodes.
Jen Donovan: 21:46
Yeah, they do, and I think it's an energy thing. I think it's not because they haven't got anything to say or they've run out of things to say. I don't believe that at all. I believe it's energy. They haven't got anything to say or they've run out of things to say. I don't believe that at all. I believe it's an energy thing.
Jen Donovan: 22:00
It takes a long time to do a podcast. When I first started five years ago, it took me nearly half a day to put out one episode. Now I have it down to a bit more of a fine art and I can get it out in probably an hour, an hour and a half If it's just me. It's a little bit longer if I've done an interview and there needs to be a little bit more editing, to which I do all of that myself. I haven't managed to outsource that yet. So I think if you're thinking about starting a podcast, you really do have to look at your time and go how much time have I got to dedicate to it? Like I love the way Ducks on the Pond, you do it in seasons as such. So you've got a volume of work for an amount of time that you're aware of and you do it in a season, as opposed to myself, where I've put out an episode every single week for the last five years. So it depends on, again, your audience, how you want to create that podcast. Some people put out two seasons and that's it. It's a bit like a mini series on TV. That's the end of that.
Jen Donovan: 22:56
I think in 2024, there is going to be a massive trend into private podcasts. I'm seeing it a lot in my podcast world of different people and you know AI technology that's coming up and people that are building programs for people who want to do private podcasts. So obviously, at the moment you can have paid podcasts, so someone can pay to listen to your content, or you can have free, like we've got. A private podcast is where you will have to give me your email address to listen to my podcast, so you don't actually have to pay. But again we're going back down to the value of an email list and now you need to be on that list to be and you'll have to log in to listen to that podcast, which I think is going to be a really interesting trend to watch in 2024.
Jen Donovan: 23:44
Will I do it? Maybe, but at the moment I probably struggle to put out a weekly episode without creating more work for myself by doing a private podcast, but it's definitely something for anyone who has memberships or a particular subject that they don't necessarily want to share with the world. Yeah, it's an interesting concept.
Kirsten Diprose: 24:06
It is an interesting concept, and I know of a really great one about mental health. It's in a rural area, a group of men who workout together and they have a private podcast, and the idea is that while they're on a run or something, they listen to each other's story and so they share really private things. So this is not about business or anything like that, but it is a way for them to share their stories in a way with people who they know, so they don't feel like they're sharing it with the world, and I think that that's a marvelous kind of use of the platform.
Jen Donovan: 24:43
Yeah, absolutely. People are just so clever the way they can think about different ways of getting content out and having content have an impact in different ways, rather than just a free for all.
Kirsten Diprose: 24:56
It all goes back to you know using the platform in the right way, doesn't it Like? I kind of think if I suddenly, with ducks in the pond, went, oh, you all have to pay and here's a firewall and you have to pay, I just think I would lose a lot of listeners. I don't think it would work in that sense. But perhaps if your business was about investing or something, you might have a private podcast for investors with specific investor insights, like you'd need to offer value.
Jen Donovan: 25:28
Absolutely so for a marketing business. As such, my podcast is quite general. I'm talking to one person, but I don't actually know who that one person is. I don't know whether they have an e-commerce business or a service-based business or a not-for-profit. So potentially you could make a series of Facebook meta ads or something like that, where you really get into the nitty gritty and you share your exact results and you share exactly what you're doing and you're like, well, actually that's actually worth something, rather than just general knowledge. So I want to at least collect an email address to get that, so that then I can talk to them further about my Facebook ads. Course that's coming up or something like that, potentially. But for me, I'm always offering for people to join my Facebook group or to download a particular lead magnet or something. So I am trying to get people through my podcast to actually take action, which is a little bit harder than it sounds.
Kirsten Diprose: 26:29
But even that idea, you've obviously just come up with a great idea for a paid subscription podcast for yourself there. You better do it before someone else does. It's fascinating how marketing keeps changing. It can be exhausting and exciting.
Jen Donovan: 26:46
Yeah, it is. I've been lucky enough to join with four other amazing thought leaders in Australia and we run the big small business survey each year and the statistic is coming out very similar year after year that around 86% of small business owners find marketing overwhelming. I think the data this 2023 was a little bit lower. I think it was about 76% thought that marketing was overwhelming. So, yeah, marketing does change. It is a little bit overwhelming and I guess my podcast is called Small Business Made Simple for a reason. I'm trying to make marketing simple for people. I'm trying to take away that overwhelm and just make them think about marketing a little bit differently. And also you step out of the just doing social media or just posting on social media habit that so many people are in what are some other ways that you can market that don't involve social media or that's not the primary goal?
Jen Donovan: 27:44
Yeah, look, I think, even with social media. For me it's. I think people need to stop thinking about audiences. So audiences in my head are dead. We now need to create communities. An audience is someone I talk at, so I stand on stage and I talk at an audience. A community is someone that I'm involved with. They're all chatting amongst themselves, they're all helping each other and I'm also helping them and perhaps I am leading the community because it still needs to be a safe space for everyone to come and that sort of thing. So I think we need to stop thinking about I need to grow an audience.
Jen Donovan: 28:19
You actually need to grow a community of people who know, like and trust you, who will do business with you over and over again and also refer business to you because they love you so much. It's sort of like word of mouth marketing, but it's creating that community all of yourself. So even on social media, you know, using it to create community rather than just to get another thousand people to like your Instagram, like even thinking about it slightly differently to that, facebook groups, they're still really powerful if they're used in the right way. And again, we'll head back to a reach out strategy. You just can't go into a group every week and go buy my stuff. People like bugger off. You know you've got to lead with that value again and you know, get in there, do some commenting. You know, share some love, help someone else out. You know, by linking to a blog post you might've wrote or that you read the other day, that would help them and build that community. Become that person that people trust.
Kirsten Diprose: 29:17
Well, you can't get any better than first person in person to build trust. I think when you've spent time and that's what I value about podcasting is that okay, you're not there in person. It's not perhaps as valuable as or as high in the trust as when you're in person with someone or at an event with someone, but it's a little bit below that Like. It's much more than scrolling on on Instagram, for instance.
Jen Donovan: 29:46
Absolutely. I always find it quite fascinating that I will do a podcast that could last 20 minutes, or I could interview someone and it could last an hour and I can hold that person's attention for all that time. My listener listens to an hour, but on social media we're so accustomed to 15 second TikTok videos that if it lasts more than 15 seconds, we've already scrolled by and watched two others type of thing. So podcasting has a really huge way of building that trust quite quickly and people, which is why sound is so important and, yeah, people will stick around and listen to that. They're in the car, they're jogging, they're walking, they're cooking dinner, whatever it is they do, but podcasting is a really great medium for that, which again comes down to a great marketing strategy.
Jen Donovan: 30:33
I'm not advocating that everyone go and start their own podcast, but there's a podcast out there for every subject that you could possibly think of, and anyone who does a podcast where they have guests are always looking for guests and so have that reach out. Do some research. What podcast could you get onto? Look, I could talk to you forever.
Kirsten Diprose: 30:52
I've got two more things I want to ask you. We need to return to the book and how that's worked in terms of marketing and how you actually put it together. But first TikTok, because I feel like for many of us, particularly anyone sort of over the age of 30, goes oh, it's that new platform and are my people really there? Do I have to get on TikTok? It seems like as soon as you go on TikTok you get a million followers or that's where you can get 100,000 likes, but I'm just I don't know. Even opening the door to TikTok overwhelms me.
Jen Donovan: 31:26
I think it does come back to you can't be everywhere. You just don't have time to be everywhere unless you've got a massive team behind you, someone like Gary Vee. You know he has someone following around 24-7 making content, or it feels like that, and someone is putting his content on all the different platforms. But for a lot of soul openers or people who are just one man bands, it does seem impossible. So you really do need to sit down and it comes back to those classic questions that aren't sexy, so often ignored. What do you want to be famous for? Who is your who and where do they hang out? They're the three questions you need to keep asking yourself. You know, who is your who? Are they really on TikTok? How do you know that? Or maybe you need to do some experimenting, or maybe you need to do some watching Places like TikTok and Instagram Reels.
Jen Donovan: 32:15
They're not going away in 2024. They are definitely here to stay, but I think, as business owners, we need to get a little bit more savvy on how we are actually using them. Using them for thought leadership rather than this is trending music. I'm going to put up some photos with the trending music and get a lot of views, because I've had some pretty big Instagram reels for my own stats, like not millions, like other people's stats. But you know, big reels, they haven't done anything for me, like I can't see the traffic, the extra traffic to my website, or I can't see extra profile views maybe a couple, but not huge. It's just I'm getting more eyeballs. So, again, you need to be more strategic about that and having really good, strong calls to actions, making sure you've got captions. Stop this. Read it in the caption rubbish, because I'm like I'm not trying to read your caption, I'm just scrolling on to the next video.
Kirsten Diprose: 33:09
tell me the video or I'm gone. I feel like you're trying to trick me. I'm like, no, don't, don't do that. Don't play games with me so that then I'm looking at the real for longer and it improves your metric. Just offer value and if it is valuable, I'll follow you and potentially maybe one day think about working with you. Don't trick me.
Jen Donovan: 33:29
Yes, exactly, exactly. So I guess it is like looking at how you feel about different things on social media and then thinking well, is that what my audience is thinking about? Is that what my ideal client is thinking about as well? So I think for me, I will continue to do some reels and I experimented a little bit on TikTok but at the moment, linkedin and Facebook groups and even threads is the place that I'm hanging out the most at the moment. That is where my people are, that is where I'm getting traction, that's where I'm getting inquiries and referrals. So that's kind of where I'll stick to until I work out that, okay, everyone's moved over here. Now I'll go over there.
Kirsten Diprose: 34:13
Specifically for regional and rural? Do you find there's one platform that works better than others?
Jen Donovan: 34:18
Yeah, look, I think the Facebook, the old Facebook and Instagram definitely are the platforms that are working. But again, it's not about the platforms anymore. It's kind of like, well, okay, instagram, are they watching more stories? Are they looking at the grid? Are they watching reels? Do they enjoy the lives? There's broadcast channels now. Are you involved in creating a broadcast channel where you can talk to your audience?
Jen Donovan: 34:41
Mind you, you can only have one-way conversations, which is a little bit frustrating, and I hope one day might change conversations, which is a little bit frustrating, and I hope one day might change. Facebook again, they're pushing reels, so that when Facebook pushes something or Instagram pushes something or any social media platform, that should be your little light bulb moment in your head to go. I need to do more of that, because they're pushing it. Then they're quite possibly putting more algorithm towards it, which means I might get better traction. So I need to sort of, you know, hang out a little bit there and test my metrics. But it all comes. We get great insights from social media and we get great analytics from our Google and I think they're really undervalued and I think we need to make sure we're watching those and watching what's working, what's not working and sort of working out where we need to be from them as well.
Kirsten Diprose: 35:30
Should people write a book? How does that work for marketing?
Jen Donovan: 35:34
I think that everyone has a book of some description inside them. My book came about because my friend Tracy wanted to write her second book and she was going to a book retreat and I was kind of like, okay, I'll come along Like I wasn't convinced I'd write a book. I wasn't convinced. I had a book retreat and I was kind of like, okay, I'll come along Like I wasn't convinced I'd write a book. I wasn't convinced I had a book inside me Four days at that retreat, came away with the plan and then I just had to write the darn thing. But that was kind of where I started.
Jen Donovan: 35:59
So for me I think, if anyone is thinking about writing a book, whether it be fiction or nonfiction, get a plan or get some people in your world who have written books before, or get a book coach and work through that with them, because it's quite an expensive exercise. It's cost me a lot of money to invest in writing this book, and that's not even including the amount of hours that I spent writing the thing. And in fact in Australia most people who write novels earn between about $10,000 and $15,000 from that novel. And I was kind of blown away because I thought, well, I can understand it for a business book, but these were novels, so it's not a great money spinner as such. And really a business book is kind of like a business card on steroids, because if you want to know Jen Donovan, does she know anything about marketing? Well, I've got about 220 pages to give you.
Jen Donovan: 36:53
So it's a bit like the podcast. It's a way of standing out from the crowd. There's a marketer for every corner of every street in Australia. How do I stand out? I stand out from my podcast, I stand out from my communities and my book is just another iteration of that. And honestly, most of the sales that I get from my book will be from packages when I stand on stage. So get me to come and talk to your constituents, to your audience, and everyone will get a free book type of thing, and that's within my charges of coming and doing a keynote or coming and doing a workshop type of thing. So that's where most of my sales will come from. So it's a real put.
Jen Donovan: 37:32
A stake in the ground about your expertise is basically what a book is, and I guess that's exactly why I wrote it, because I wanted many people had told me if you want to go to the next level. You got to write a book in business, so I'm hoping the 2024 is full of next level for me because I wrote the book and now I want the next level. Are you on Twitter? I'm not on Twitter. I do have a profile on Twitter, but I haven't used Twitter in ages, or X as it is now called. I think you should run for the hills if you are on Twitter. Unless you are a farmer, a famous person or a politician, I don't really think that Twitter is necessarily for you.
Kirsten Diprose: 38:14
But isn't that interesting, right? Because a lot of us are farmers or our clients and businesses are related to farming. Farmers are still on there. I used to love well X now, but I know it as Twitter because I used to love it and had quite a following, because I was a journalist and journalists who find journalists and politicians on there, and it was really, like you know, 10 years ago, the place where news broke and everyone had to be on.
Kirsten Diprose: 38:41
Twitter and now it's this kind of strange place where Elon Musk is controlling the algorithm. It's like a swamp.
Jen Donovan: 38:50
It is A swamp with odd people in the water. It is Just come out. Yeah, no, I don't like it. I don't like the feel of it. There are still a few good people there.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:00
Like I sort of dip my toe in and just sort of go anyone else still there, and then sometimes I'll find some other you know, sometimes the algorithm will show you those nice people.
Jen Donovan: 39:08
That's the problem.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:09
Yeah, yeah, I do get them, but I often get a whole lot of people who I have nothing to do with, who I don't really want to hear from, and then sometimes you put things out there and it's nasty, very much so, and there's enough nastiness on the other platforms about going there to try and find some nastiness, in my opinion.
Jen Donovan: 39:27
So, no, I'm not a tweeter or an Xer or whatever you would like to call me now, I don't know.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:33
I think it's just like Elon Musk and people who love him are on there. That's kind of the feel, and I don't have anything majorly against Elon Musk. It's just got a weird feel. It's not what it was a couple of years ago.
Jen Donovan: 39:45
No. And yet Elon Musk is changing the landscape for so many rural and regional businesses with his Starlink. So you're kind of like I don't like him on one hand. On the other hand, he's changing the business orientation for rural and regional businesses because farmers are big business now and they need good internet service and our providers haven't been able to do it. But that is a very big, different conversation. So we do love him for Starlink.
Kirsten Diprose: 40:10
I'm on Starlink. Thank you, elon. I'm like maybe media is not your thing. Maybe rockets and satellites, not so much media.
Jen Donovan: 40:19
Yeah, what do you want to be famous for? Stick to that. A really great lesson for all business owners.
Kirsten Diprose: 40:25
I bet you'd work with Elon if he wanted some advice, wouldn't you? No, never. Yes, you would Come on, he'd pay top dollar.
Jen Donovan: 40:33
He wouldn't listen to a woman, or a rural woman or an Australian woman.
Kirsten Diprose: 40:38
I reckon if anyone could do it, it'd be you, Jen. What's different about rural and regional, do you think, when it comes to marketing, or perhaps the way we network or do business, what is different to perhaps how you would approach something for different audiences or communities? I'm using the word community Communities.
Jen Donovan: 40:56
Yes, well done, well done. I love that. It is a volume of numbers to a certain degree, if you compare us to Metropolitan. If you woke up as a small business owner in metropolitan Sydney and you said, oh, I'd like to go and do some networking this week, you'd probably have 50 choices of different networking places you could go. 50 might be an exaggeration, but you might have 10 or 15. In rural and regional areas, you might have two, you might have none, you might have to go online and sort of find your community there.
Jen Donovan: 41:27
So it is a volume of numbers, but it's also a trust factor as well. On steroids, like in rural and regional communities, you are so much more likely to refer someone that has done good by you and you've had a great experience with them, just because that's the way we're built around here is. You know, we are very community minded. But it's also price as well. One of the things that is hard for online retailers and retailers who have online stores in rural and regional areas is the cost of postage, the cost of freight, the cost of running an ad in a newspaper or a radio, as opposed to perhaps being able to do it in a metropolitan area, so price does come down to it as well. So we need to be more savvy and have a better strategy and know how to measure our marketing efforts that we have done.
Kirsten Diprose: 42:20
And that's it for Ducks on the Pond. I really hope you enjoyed our chat with Jen Donovan. Her book is called Small Town, big Impact and she has a podcast called Small Business Made Simple, which I highly recommend. And just a reminder, if you're interested in making a podcast yourself, that's what I do at the Rural Podcasting Co. So whether you're an individual with a small business or you're part of a big organisation, I'll have a program or product that fits your needs. How's that for marketing in a podcast about marketing? And for Ducks in the Pond another reminder we love to get your recommendations, so if you know of a rural woman we should be speaking to, then please let us know about her. It could even be you. Dm us on Instagram at Ducks in on the pond, or you can find our email address in our show notes. We're also looking for episode sponsors. Thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time.
