Does HOW we talk about our rural men, matter? Part 2 - Louise O’Neill
Show Notes
Does how we talk about men influence the massive problem of violence against women?
There are conversations we need to have in broader society about family violence. But where are the men?
How do we get our men to actively participate in a stand to stop violence against women? This is a tricky conversation. Clearly, it would be great if men just stop being violent. But telling men to simply ‘stop it,’ isn’t working.
And this is certainly NOT about blaming women. This is more about how do we make family violence prevention a whole of community thing? So not just something for “women's groups” to tackle. We need a multifaceted approach. And we need the men to come along with us.
In part 2 of this series, we speak to Louise O’Neill, a rural counsellor and founder of Farm Life Fitness, based in Denmark, WA. Louise is challenging the unhelpful and unhealthy expectations that can heavily influence the mental health and lives of both rural men and women.
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Louise O'Neill: 0:04
And so when we try and break paradigms or we try and break those cultures, people can get defensive about it.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:13
Kirsten Diprose here for Ducks on the Pond brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co. This is part two of our conversation about whether how we talk about our rural men matters conversation about whether how we talk about our rural men matters. And what I want to know is is it okay to whine about your partner to your girlfriends, like, is that damaging, or is that just part of our social connection and a safe emotional outlet? Well, Louise O'Neill has a really good answer for that question and many more. She's a rural counsellor and founder of Farm Life Fitness. She's also a mother and actively involved in the management of her property in Denmark, western Australia.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:52
Louise and her husband Warren have faced their own mental health challenges living and working rurally. Louise has seen too often what can happen when those unhelpful and unhealthy paradigms, like the expectation to work 24-7, can have on men and women. And that's only one paradigm she's trying to disrupt in the ag world. In this conversation we also talk about family violence and the conversations we should be having as a broader society. Because where are the men? How do we get our men to actively participate in the stand to stop violence against women? This is a tricky conversation because we dance along the line of what can we do better? Clearly, it would be great if men just stopped being violent, and this is certainly not about blaming women. You should never feel unsafe in your own home. This is more about how do we make family violence prevention a whole of community thing, so not just something for women's groups to tackle. As I said last episode, this series is drilling into complex societal problems which need a multifaceted approach. So let's meet Louise.
Louise O'Neill: 2:09
My husband and I we farm right down south in Denmark. In WA we trade sheep at the moment and before that we were in northern, which is a wheat belt town which is about four hours north to Denmark. We had cropping and sheep enterprise. Then I met my husband when I was backpacking. I was working in a bar and I met him that way, but I always knew that I wanted to stay before things got serious between him and I, and he's a pergenerational farmer so farming's always been in his blood and it just seemed to suit me. I seemed to just fall into it and really love it, to be honest, and I love the life. I love the life it gives our kids and just that connection to land. Where are you from? Originally From England, southwest like Bath, Bristol area. I told my parents I'd go backpacking for six months and that was about 14 years ago, wow.
Kirsten Diprose: 3:03
And so what's the community that you live in now like?
Louise O'Neill: 3:07
Denmark is very. It's got a real holistic sense to it and it's known for that. You could say and I say respectfully it's a little bit hippie, but that's generally what it is. Everyone's very into their health and wellbeing and there's lots of things to do in nature and there's a lot of social connection happening down here. There's a lot more sense of people moved here for a bit of a lifestyle change as well, which is what's happened and which is continuing to happen around here.
Kirsten Diprose: 3:38
I really want to touch on something you said there. Does the whole wellness movement perhaps not fit the farming community, or is it not resonating in the same way as it does for other people?
Louise O'Neill: 3:51
I think that's a really good question, because my business is I'm a rural counsellor, right? So that's what I spend my time doing. I spend my time advocating for better mental health services in our rural communities. I work with people every single day and we talk about mental health and wellness and it's a big part of who I am, and I question sometimes why it is taking so long for it to be received openly.
Louise O'Neill: 4:17
I think the part of it that it has this stoicism around farming and that there are so many deep paradigms and so many deep cultural beliefs in farming, particularly about that.
Louise O'Neill: 4:30
It's 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and it's very stoic and we just accept that agriculture and farming is hard and that's the way it is.
Louise O'Neill: 4:41
And so when we try and break those paradigms or we try and break those cultures, people can get defensive about it, and that's absolutely understandable. When we try and change something, we're rocking a status quo that has been there for so long, and what's the first thing that happens? We get our defences up, and it can also be hard to face up to things as well. Ignorance is bliss or deny, or whatever you want to call it. It's a lot easier sometimes to stay in that cultural work that we are rather than try and push for change, and we know change can be hard as well. And then I think you add into the very obvious fact that there just aren't the services there. There are so few and far between people like myself trying to do such a big job and we approach it with a top down approach, which is what research tells us and what should happen and what's worked in Metropole. It's not going to work.
Kirsten Diprose: 5:35
Is it a generational thing? My kids have Mindfulness Mondays and there's Wellness Week that they celebrate. These things weren't around when I was a kid, I know and how amazing is it that's there now.
Louise O'Neill: 5:49
I think it's great, and I think it's great there's choice as well. But I guess we don't want to go the other way, where it's all we focus on all the time and just push it and push it. But I do think you're right, I think it is a generational thing and I think it comes back to those core beliefs and that culture that we're in. I look at my husband and when I first met my husband and he's very open about talking about this it was very work, work, work. His dad did the same thing, his friends do the same thing and that's all they know. So why should it be any different? And it was only where we reached a very big tipping point and probably I came along and threw my opinions into the mix and said this is not how we are going to live and this is not how we're going to raise kids. Is that things started to change?
Louise O'Neill: 6:37
And now he is one of the most like, positive people when it comes to health and wellness. The stuff he does is incredible. He, he does grounding, he does muscle incredible. He does grounding. He does muscle relaxation. He moves for his mental health, he tries to eat well. So he is a changed man, as corny as that sounds, but I think it is still that resistance and it is a generational thing because it's learned behaviour as well. And if we didn't have those role models, then they're just going to roll them off what they had. And if we didn't have those role models, then they're just going to roll them off what they had. And there's great attributes to it as well. We meet those times where you have to go pedal to the metal and you have to have that certain resilience to be able to keep going. But I think the problem was there was no talk about that other, softer side for our men to learn from and for it to be okay to show that vulnerability and emotion as well.
Kirsten Diprose: 7:32
That's great that your husband is at that point. Is he inspiring other men?
Louise O'Neill: 7:37
Look, I think he does, especially down here where the conversation is a bit more open with men and women about mental health and looking after yourself. He's had some great conversations with our friends down here, but he's very quiet about it. I'm the storyteller, so I go out and tell our story and champion and cheerlead for him and I would hope that through me perhaps not talking just all about my experience but about his experience that maybe that can be a catalyst to get the conversation going.
Kirsten Diprose: 8:12
And I think culture change is possible. I've witnessed it with alcohol consumption. If a guy says, no, not today, or I'm not drinking this week, or I'm actually not drinking as much anymore, I'm just going to have an alcohol-free beer. I just witness now people going oh yeah, no, worries, that's great, good on you. Rather than the go on, just have one. I'm sure that still happens, but there is a culture change that's happened.
Louise O'Neill: 8:41
Absolutely, and I think it's because we've got so many great advocates out there talking about it and making it okay to make that choice. And again, but I'm harping on about him but Wozza decided to quit drinking nearly six years ago now and he just stopped. And it was when we were in our old town and look at the. There was that bit of oh did you forget your skirt today? Kind of thing going on when he would say no, and it was amongst his friends and it was said in jest. It was never a malicious thing. But there was also and I said to him, it's because you are challenging them to think and you're just rocking their boat a little bit but that that went and they totally respected him and they never really said anything again to them, particularly again down here.
Louise O'Neill: 9:32
There's a lot more men that are choosing not to drink and stats and research will tell us that by younger generations coming through, particularly males are choosing not to drink and focusing more on their well-being and being healthy. So, yeah, you can change a culture, so long as it's a continued tool and something that we don't focus on the negative so much, but we focus on why it's flourishing, why it's another way to do something, as opposed to oh, this is bad, we can't do it. Let's focus on what's good about perhaps choosing not to drink, if that makes sense.
Kirsten Diprose: 10:08
Yeah, exactly focusing on the positives. Is there anything about how we talk about rural men? And I'll put my hand up and say I'm probably guilty of not saying the best things all the time.
Louise O'Neill: 10:22
And so am I 100%, and I don't think there's any person, whether you're male or female, that doesn't say something either controversial, the wrong way. If we're angry or frustrated and that's where it comes from a lot, because you're absolutely right like we love our men and our men love us, and it's just when sometimes the ones closest to us is the people we take our hurt and our anger out the most at. And I think it's because I often say that those closest to us are our sounding boards. They're the ones we trust that we can sometimes say the wrong thing or sometimes be angry at them, and they have our backs and they know it's not really us. And they have our backs and they know it's not really us.
Louise O'Neill: 11:05
But I do think there's this little bit of I don't know whether it's resentment I'm still trying to figure out what it is and I mean that in the most disrespectful way towards men in Acts sometimes, because generally, although there are female farmers out there, generally they're the ones that are out late, they're the ones and they are working, but they may also have a few more beers after they've finished and not come straight home to help with the childcare, or might not come home to cook dinner or do the washing and it's left to females predominantly. And I fully understand that resentment because I can feel like that sometimes. Especially women are also trying to work as well. That's another layer. That's another layer of mental load.
Louise O'Neill: 11:52
And I have said to my husband you know when you cause he goes away shearing. He's away at the moment and that's not a problem. I know he's working hard. But I say to him you know, when you go away, do you think about what the boys have got at school, or that they have swimming in a couple of weeks time, or that I need to go and do the monthly shop, or something like that? Now?
Kirsten Diprose: 12:16
you've just reminded me now that I need to book in parent teacher interviews. So it's constant, isn't?
Louise O'Neill: 12:23
it. But our brains are like all the time and there's research behind it. There's research that says that as women, we have more of a connection between both hemispheres of our brain than men, and men only connect and integrate with heavier on their left side, which is more that logic and reasoning, um? And? And they're able to compartmentalise more because of that connection, or or lack of connection, between both sides. But we use both sides constantly and so we are constantly thinking of constantly taking my mental load and so we take it out on those men and sometimes I take my frustration out of him because I am slightly jealous that he could do it, that he could walk out that door and he can focus on work and not leave the kids behind. Because he loves our boys, he'll do anything for them, but he doesn't think about them, and so I think we can get frustrated and we can say the wrong thing.
Louise O'Neill: 13:23
And because, as women as well, we, our core beliefs are about connection and emotion and intimacy. We'll go to our friends and we might have, we might bag them out a little bit, and we and before you know it, there's a bit of this and I think it's very respectfully, but a bit of a toxic conversation that then starts to happen and you're in the safety of your friends and that's absolutely fine. You've got to have that safe space. But it can be hard to pull it back sometimes and, yeah, I do think there's a little bit of unfair perception towards the men sometimes and I say that very respectfully and I know that people might not appreciate me saying that, but it's also what I, yeah, and what I talk about and who I talk with as well.
Kirsten Diprose: 14:12
Look, you're brave saying that it's. And it's because it's complex, isn't it? Because there are assholes out there, as in there are men who are violent and you need to be able to speak to your friends who can, if you're in a situation where you're not safe, can help you get out of that and all of those things. And I suppose that's different when you know you're in a loving relationship and that love goes both ways and you do get frustrated. I suppose we need to make that line clear, but maybe that line sometimes isn't clear as well. Like it's so complex. If we're just having those conversations with our friends, is that doing any damage to our husband if they don't know about it? We're just letting off steam. We women, we chat. We're just like, oh god, he's never coming, always late home and I always have to put the kids bed and he's. That's just us chatting, isn't it?
Louise O'Neill: 15:03
yeah, it is, and I you hit on a really good point. I do want to make that clear. There are some absolute assholes out there and there are some not very nice women out there as well. Absolutely domestic violence message goes both ways and if we've been hurt but mainly more men, mainly- yes, I'm just gonna call it, it's mainly men against women and you can't deny, especially what's going on at the moment.
Louise O'Neill: 15:24
There's a massive push for it. I think it's massively needed, particularly in our rural communities. It's one of those things they still get buried under the carpet, but we know it's there and if you've had that happen, you take that on and you can take it into your next relationship. And it takes time to trust that person. So I want to make that very clear. There are differences, but what we're talking about is when we are in that loving relationship and, yes, when we're in our social circles, it's to tell our stories and it's to learn and it's to make us know that we are not the only ones going through it. I think the difference is it is if we can say that and let it go and think, oh god, it feels so much better for saying that, that's fantastic and you acknowledge that you've left it there, that's totally fine.
Louise O'Neill: 16:14
But it's when it can sometimes pet us up and then we go home with that anger in us and also sometimes other people's envy. We take on other people's energy and if we haven't let go of that, and then we bring it home and we're still carrying it and I have done it and I am really bad at this. My husband is a lot better at letting things go. But I will hang on to something and it's my problem, it is not his.
Louise O'Neill: 16:39
And I always say to people that no one has the right to make us feel or behave or act a certain way. How we choose to pay, it is down to us, and I am I can be very bad at that. And if we don't let that go, we bring it in, it can build in us and then that lack of communication starts to happen. So I think If there's good communication in the relationship but you also have that outlet of friends, that's fantastic, that's healthy. It's sometimes when the communication starts to break down and again, it's not an easy fix when that communication breaks down and we go to our friends for all the support and everything like that and we don't either let go or we don't try and talk it through with those we love. That's when those barriers can come up, that's when the hurt can carry on and that's when things get a little bit unhealthy I think you've really hit the nail on the head in terms of making it make sense.
Kirsten Diprose: 17:42
I don't want to make generalizations about gender, but I'm going to. Um, it seems like we women we often do hold on to things a bit more. Men, they just like. Men are simple, they just forget it, they move on. I think sometimes it's the stories we tell ourselves and it replays in our head and you think about it and then the next time something happens it reminds you of it. What are some tips, maybe to break that cycle or to kind of think okay, is this something I need to talk about my partner with?
Louise O'Neill: 18:13
If we are caught in this cycle of hurt and frustration, like you said, it can get ingrained and the stories can keep going. How can we be aware and how can we turn ourselves back to the present? And how can we be aware of this isn't a helpful conversation in my head and that goes back to things like how much time do we give ourselves, how much time do we allow ourselves to stop and breathe? And if we allow ourselves just a little bit of time out each day, one or two minutes, just to stop and be present, that can go a long way to how we perceive our thoughts and the stories we tell ahead, because we're giving ourselves time just to breathe. And I think, particularly as women, when we wear so many hats, we are in that constant state of fight or flight, constantly thinking, always thinking one step ahead or chasing our tail, and so that cortisol is really high. And we know that if we don't get that cortisol down and if we don't stop that fight or flight, that can cause more anxiety and that can cause those thoughts to keep going.
Louise O'Neill: 19:26
And it's about I talk a lot about transitioning can you transition between each task? And I'm only talking about 30 seconds to a minute. So if, say, you just drop the kids off and you're going straight to work, can you in the car just take 30 seconds or a minute to just breathe and just slow it down? We're going to try to lower that cortisol, we're going to try to give us that homeostasis that we know we need, and so there's like physiological responses that can actually help us.
Louise O'Neill: 19:57
And then I think it's also about being okay with giving us some time to ourselves, because when we're not okay with it, that's when we hold resentment and it's not easy to be angry at at someone else than it is to go. What's really going on here? And then I guess just be brave and having the talk with your partner or whoever it is is causing you frustration. That's the partner and saying let's use positive conversation as well, if you can put it in a bit of context sometimes, and going this makes me a bit upset when this happened. So you're taking a bit of ownership as well. It gives a little bit of leeway, yeah it's the I feel statements.
Kirsten Diprose: 20:37
You know I feel when that happens or when you're not home in time, I feel left with the burden, or whatever it is and one that I like to remind myself and I'm certainly not perfect, but I like to remind myself that there's two sides to every story, and that resonates with me, I think, as a journo of old and of heart. So the stories that we tell ourselves okay, he's out working late again on the farm. I could say, oh, that's because he doesn't want to help me out with the kids. That's one story. Or is it because he's got a lot of work to do and he wants to be the best provider for our family? There's two versions of that. Maybe both are a bit true, I don't know that. Maybe both are a bit true, I don't know. But and it's a tough one, isn't it because you, you don't want people to get away with being a bit?
Louise O'Neill: 21:34
shit right, you can't allow that.
Louise O'Neill: 21:36
But also you need to be fair and understand that we're all human as well yeah, I just wrote down something that when you were, when we were talking about them being out, I think also, I don't think it hurts for the man to realize what women do, and I am not a fan of oh, I'm a farmer's wife, I'm just a farmer's wife. You are not just a farmer's wife, you are an integral part of that business and I think sometimes men can forget that because they are the ones going out, they're the ones with the boots on the ground, right, they're the ones doing the hard labor. But I always say to women and it can be a bit of an identity thing, and again it comes back to their self-worth it can be a bit of an identity thing and again it comes back to their self-worth. So what would happen then if you weren't there to sort out the kids?
Louise O'Neill: 22:32
Or you weren't there when the kids were off sick for the day? What would happen if you didn't run the books? What would happen if you didn't drive those meals out to those people? The business would fall apart. So they're an integral part of the business and I think that's such an important conversation to have with your partner about going. You know what I need to feel some worth here. I need to tell them. I just need to be thanked, and that's not a glory thing, it's just recognition't it? It's just validation for what we do.
Kirsten Diprose: 23:09
A validation work both ways you can't thank each other enough, like as in, because things just become, oh, that's what you do. My husband mowed the lawn the other day and I said, oh, thanks for doing that. It just makes the house look like, makes me feel happy when I drive in, and he wouldn't need to be thanked. He, he's not as like I do, I love to be thanked and acknowledged. He doesn't seem to have that character fault that I do, but I still think it. I still think he likes it. Louise, you, you mentioned about how you know we need a whole of community approach essentially to tackling family violence. But you hear a lot how men just aren't really stepping up in this space, that it's still really women who are pushing this agenda, who are talking about it, who are wanting things done, and I don't know. A lot of men are silent. I think they don't know what to do or what to say, perhaps. But what's going on here?
Louise O'Neill: 24:06
do you think, when you started saying that, the first thing I thought was you know, if you're that male that is committing domestic violence, then you know I don't think they're born with this agenda that this is what they're going to do and this is their purpose is to do this. So you know, you could imagine that they are probably sat there listening to all these awareness campaigns and listening to what's going on and there's probably, I'm sure well, there's not, probably there is this deep sense of shame with them and I think we are very good at that moment at throwing money into pure cure, cure, cure. But I would like, or hope, that there's something in there that we need to look at prevention. You know what is going on with these men that is causing this to happen, and we know that there are predisposing factors. We know that there are things like they may have gone through their own trauma as young children. We're predisposed to so many factors in ag, like the weather, the markets, the laws that are being passed constantly that are just going to build up their stresses, and the risky behavior, the drinking, the late night working. They're set on those tractors and their thoughts are going around their head as well. They're telling their own stories and making up their own stories in their head about what's going on.
Louise O'Neill: 25:30
And I do not want to take anything away from domestic violence and I'm not making excuses. It shouldn't happen, it needs needs to stop. But I wonder why it's getting worse and what we're not doing. And I think you're right when you're talking about bringing men in, because they are not talking about it and I think it is because of that shame, and we're also not encouraging them to talk about it. We're not giving them a space where they can go. Well, let's work with you through what has been going on with you. Let's give you the tools so that you can change your behavior. At the moment, could you imagine, if they came forward and said they need help, the response that they would get in the community? And that's quite right. People are angry. They deserve to be angry.
Kirsten Diprose: 26:21
Yeah, I feel angry just thinking about the notion of that, you know, but is there somewhere that they can go? I mean, there are places where you can seek help and anger management and those sorts of things. I find it would be very hard for it to be an acceptable thing to discuss in community.
Louise O'Neill: 26:43
Yeah, I do, and I think that's a really great insight and and I think that is one where we have to think outside the box we have to think, you know, there's stigma attached to reaching out about mental health in the first place, not specifically about surrounding domestic violence, but it's the same with suicide.
Louise O'Neill: 27:03
There's stigma around reaching out and asking for help, and so what happens is we get these elevated stats and insights around suicide and it's because nobody wants to put themselves in that position where they might be seen or their car might be recognized or their youth might be recognized.
Louise O'Neill: 27:21
So we need to look at interventions that meet them where they're at, in a safe space. We need to look at interventions that meet them where they're at, in a safe space, be it online. How amazing would it be if we had some funding to enable them to travel, to go to these places that are in Perth or something like that, where they're off farm, so that they're not around those stresses all the time and they can take some time to breathe and to work through what is going on with them, so that we can stop it, but we can also prevent it. So if they're starting to feel like this, if they're starting to feel overwhelmed. They've got spaces to go, they've got places to go and people to turn to whether it's men's support group or whether it's health professionals like myself that want to, that really want to try and help prevent then that's where I think we're missing the point slightly is working in that prevention state?
Kirsten Diprose: 28:17
A lot of the women's groups who support women who have gone through domestic violence. They say that the core problem and there's a lot of research to support it they say that the core underlying problem is seeing women as lesser, is anger management part of it, or getting off the farm and being less stressed and alcohol.
Louise O'Neill: 28:51
And, yes, they're all contributing factors, but it's that notion of women not being equal, yeah, and I think that comes back to almost a cultural paradigm thing. We've got this thing. It's toxic masculinity, right. There's almost this way that we think our men are supposed to behave they're supposed to be rigid, they're supposed to be stoic, they're supposed to contain what they're feeling and not let it out, and they're supposed to be the breadwinners and they're supposed to be the ones going out to work all the time, and they're supposed to be this strong, macho type of man. And so, yeah, and then what that carries into is probably this belief by them, in some level, that they are the alpha male and that everyone else is below them.
Louise O'Neill: 29:34
And you know, you only have to look at I don't know whether you've heard of it, but there's something on the internet and it's labeled the manosphere, which is where you can go online, and there's this whole section of the internet that is created to lift men and oppress women, like you've got a man up, you've got to do this. And you know, I held a stretch. I read somewhere, I had a stretch for two minutes and it was painful all the time, but I did it and I came out stronger. You know that's not teaching them anything. That is just teaching them to be this strong man that they then take into their home and their work and they can't escape it. So they're surrounded by it and you know, when they're on the tractor or they're doing long hours, of course they're going to scroll the internet, of course they're going to look through things, and this is where this is hitting them from, and it's constantly.
Louise O'Neill: 30:26
What you were saying is you know, it's about oppressing women and saying they need to be the alpha male and they just need to get on with it, and so they hold this tension. And so, yes, yes, anger management great, I think that's a tool, but it's still not going back to what you just said, then, which is where is this coming from? Where are these beliefs coming from that they are bringing through? And that takes time to chip away at and that takes them to be able to be vulnerable and then to be able to have that safe space as well, but it takes people to lead the conversation to them, to open that up. They probably don't even know half of this stuff. They don't know their core beliefs that run that deep with them about this stuff until someone is going to stand up with them and talk with them about it, to change that behavior. And this needs to go right back to our grassroots level to change this.
Kirsten Diprose: 31:28
I'd love to see a man or you know lots of men actually step up in this space and just sort of say hey, you know, real men don't do that. I don't know someone that can advocate and talk to men in a way that they will listen and will admire that man as well. So I don't know where to find that person or these people.
Louise O'Neill: 31:51
You know, you've got the likes of, I guess, Warren Davies, the Unbreakable Farmer.
Louise O'Neill: 31:56
Oh, he's great, yeah, he's not too tough to speak and yeah, you're right.
Louise O'Neill: 32:04
But and I think I said earlier on, like it's not always this top-down approach that we need, like research and evidence is great and we we need that as well, but what we also need is that bottom. But we need people with that experience to have the courage to go. I've either been there or I felt like this and, like you said, be that leadership, be that leader and be that role model to encourage others to step up as well and to encourage others to to be okay, to talk and look, I don't, I'm like you, I don't have the answers, but I work with people on both sides of the coin and I try to work with them without judgment, and sometimes that's really hard, but I guess I am hearing the other side of their pain and their shame and you're absolutely right that we do need someone to step up or an organization or something to step up and make that move and hopefully just create these stronger, healthier communities by that communication that they need as well.
Kirsten Diprose: 33:05
And we need people like you to work with men and to be that safe space and to be that sounding board.
Kirsten Diprose: 33:12
And I think it's a good sign that you know some men are feeling shame and guilt about it, because it shows that they do feel something. I'm sure there's a proportion of the population that don't you know, like your psychopaths and all of those kind of people, but it's obviously a bigger problem than that because of how often it occurs. You know, one in three women have experienced violence and so some of them are absolute demons a small proportion but the rest of them live amongst us and can be great mates and good sons and all of those things. Which makes this whole issue so complex and so difficult to talk about it is because I think to save women's lives, we need to look at it from a more holistic perspective. So I still come at this from a we need to look after women perspective. Yeah, because a part of me always in this conversation goes why don't you just stop killing women, right, like I? Just like, just don't hit women.
Kirsten Diprose: 34:25
There you go Problem solved, but that's not working, so I have to accept that. And then how do we have that conversation in a way that is effective in changing what we've got now?
Louise O'Neill: 34:38
Yeah, and it's so hard, isn't it, to have empathy or even sympathy, like you said. You know, just stop it. And there are people that are just narcissists and sociopaths and lock them up, throw away the key, you know, talk to them when they're in there. But there are, like you said, this group that they do feel the shame and they do feel the guilt.
Kirsten Diprose: 35:01
And it's trained behaviour too, isn't it Like, as in you, just if you've been doing that your whole life, you've never been taught how to regulate your emotions? It's? Yeah, it takes time to unpick that, and I think we as women can find that hard to understand, because I just don't have that Like. I just don't ever feel like hitting someone, you know, like I just, oh, I'll burst into tears. Of course I get angry, but I don't ever. I don't know, it's just not part of the makeup and probably because of how I was raised or, you know, being female, I don't know all of those things.
Louise O'Neill: 35:38
Oh, there's so many factors to the human brain. The human brain is this phenomenal thing that I don't think we even know a fraction about, but it is learned behaviour. But with the human brain chemical imbalances, they know the difference between right or wrong law, but there's all these predisposing factors that are going on and they're a bit stuck that needs medication to help them with. But they've never even thought of that because it's never been brought up to them before. We are aware of these chemical imbalances and you think way back when it wouldn't have been talked about at all. They just had to keep going with it, and so, like you said, it's such ingrained behavior that has gone back so so far and it you, you know the core beliefs, whatever you want to call it. They take so long to change and so much work that there's all these things that are up against them already and then that pressure and then that shame as well that comes with it.
Louise O'Neill: 36:37
And I'm not for a second making excuses at all. I want to make that absolutely clear. But there are reasons and we also can't deny the reasons.
Kirsten Diprose: 36:45
What would be a final takeaway message that you would like to give, talking about how we talk about our men, particularly our rural men. Yeah, what can we do in a positive light? And again I go back to the reason why I do want our men to feel valued because they are. They so are, and it's such a complex time that we're living in where we're finally really acknowledging family violence in the public sphere and tackling that we need to.
Louise O'Neill: 37:27
That is so important. And I think number one is we have to keep shining a light on what's going on in our rural communities and our metropole when it comes to domestic violence, because nothing's going to change if we don't shine a light on it. But nothing's going to change if we don't involve everyone in the conversation. Nothing's going to change if we don't involve men and women, young and old, in this conversation, because it's going to be a cultural thing as well. So we have to respectfully involve our younger people in it as well to make the change. I think it just comes back to communication and I have to get better at it as well Just letting them know that we do value them in the ways that we know they appreciate. Maybe it's just being a bit more tactile sometimes, just giving them a hug or something like that. We may not want it, but sometimes that touch can go a long way. It doesn't mean it has to lead into anything, but just a hug or something like that.
Louise O'Neill: 38:20
So it's I think if we quite, if we try and meet each other halfway, that's got to be a start to making this change. And I think it still goes back to if we do want change. It has to be a case of us, not them, and not two separates, like we have to come together and work together. And it just comes back to, I think, people like you, people like me, people like anyone, having these conversations where we can, where you can use your influence, where I can use my influence, and making it okay to talk about these things, not hiding behind it anymore, making it okay to say you know what, babe, babe, these conversations aren't the best. How can we change this? Keeping it in the negative all the time, saying how can we change? What can we do as an individual, as a community, as quite as it sounds in the world, to create this change? So we can start to get like to a grassroots and create the change there?
Kirsten Diprose: 39:21
I'm a big fan of continuous improvement in business and in life. We're all just one kind of work in progress. There's no end point. It's just one work in progress.
Louise O'Neill: 39:34
Yeah, and no one is perfect. No matter what on social media or what someone tells you, or even if someone is using a platform to talk about something they know a lot about, it still doesn't make us perfect. We still all have our flaws. We never have all our ducks in a row and where we, I think as well. We don't look at people on a pedestal so much, but we just look at them as they might have an answer. They don't have all the answers and we don't compare ourselves all the time. It can take a lot of pressure off as well of how we perceive other people, because you never know what goes on behind closed doors. So, yeah, no one's perfect. No one at all.
Kirsten Diprose: 40:16
And that's it for this episode of Ducks on the Pond. My name is Kirsten Diprose. Thank you for listening. Thank you to Louise O'Neill for jumping right into those tricky questions and giving us some solid, everyday, practical tips too. This is a rural podcasting co-production. We empower rural people to tell their own story through podcast, coaching, consultation, strategy and even full service. Check out the website for more details, and we have a newsletter you can sign up to as well. You can follow Ducks on the Pond on Instagram and if you've got a good story idea, someone we should be speaking to, please let us know. I'll catch you next time.
