Knowledge in Ag is Power - Part 1: Managing the Family Farm
Show Notes
Women have a powerful voice in agriculture, but would you call it equal to men?
In Australia, there are more than 88,000 women working in agriculture across multiple industries. The numbers are growing, but women only make up one third of the overall ag workforce. There are also fewer women in positions of seniority, while research shows daughters only inherit the farm about 10 percent of the time.
It's a complex problem, but a key leveller is undoubtedly education and knowledge. So in this 3 part-series, sponsored by RIST, we meet three women who have gained knowledge and power to make big things happen in their fields - from farm ownership, to becoming recognised leaders and change agents in agriculture.
In this episode, we meet Rachael McGrath, winner of the 2024 Young Dairy Leader Award. At 30 years old, Rachael is managing her family's dairy farm at Orford, in south-west Victoria. She's a lover of genetics, with her own Jersey and Swiss Brown stud.
But it's actually quite amazing that Rachel has such a passion for farming... because growing up, it wasn't easy. Her family came close to losing their entire livelihood, after a tragic quad bike accident in which a man who worked on the farm was killed and another employee was seriously injured. A farm fatality is every farmer's worst nightmare. And yet here's Rachel, now building her own dream of running a farm.
Thank you to our episode sponsor: Rural Industries Skill Training (RIST)
More about RIST:
We are a leading independent provider of Training & Education for the Agricultural Sector.Located in the heart of Victoria's Western District, RIST are your Local Agricultural College with a National Reach. TOID4198
This podcast is produced by the Rural Podcasting Co.
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Rachael: 0:04
We all sort of know what we want. Like my brother doesn't want the farm, I want the farm. My sister wants a bit of area for her horses.
Kirsten: 0:15
Hello, welcome to Ducks on the Pond, brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co, kirsten Diprose here. Yes, we are in between official seasons, but I promised some bonus episodes and I'm so excited to deliver you this special three-part series called Knowledge in Ag is Power. We've got one coming out every week, doing it in collaboration with Rural Industry Skill Training, better known as RIST, which is based in the Western districts of Victoria. Now, you probably know the quote knowledge is power. It's from Francis Bacon, who was a guy, you know, in the 1500s in England, a philosopher, a scientist, a statesman, all of those sorts of things that you got to be back then if you were a white bloke. And I thought I wonder who his wife was and what her role was. Anyway, she got married to him at age 14. So I don't know about how much knowledge or wisdom she might've had at that age to form an educated decision, but anyway, that is quite a major tangent.
Kirsten: 1:30
So let's come back to Australia, back to the modern era, and right now there are more than 88,000 women working in agriculture in the country. So the numbers are growing, but only really makes up one third of the overall workforce. There are also fewer women in positions of seniority, and research shows daughters only inherit the farm about 10% of the time. So there are many factors influencing why women don't quite yet have an equal footing on the stage of agriculture. It's a complex problem, but a key leveller is undoubtedly education and knowledge. So in this series we meet three women who have gained knowledge in agriculture to make really big things happen, including farm ownership and becoming mentors and change agents in their sectors.
Kirsten: 2:23
So let's meet our first one, rachel McGrath, probably our youngest out of our three guests, who won the 2024 Young Dairy Leaders Award. At 30 years old, rachel McGrath is managing her family's dairy farm at Orford in southwest Victoria. She works alongside her dad and her uncle, also with her sister and mum involved in the business too. So Rachel's an absolute go-getter. She's got her own Jersey and Swiss brown stud and an absolute love of genetics, which she would say she just really likes good looking cows. In fact, you will hear her say that, but it's actually quite amazing that she has such a passion for farming, because growing up it wasn't easy. Her family came close to losing their entire livelihood after a tragic quad bike accident in which a man who worked on the farm was killed and another employee seriously injured when they were hit by a truck. A farm fatality is every farmer's worst nightmare, and yet here's Rachel now building her own dream of running a farm.
Rachael: 3:32
I've grown up as a farmer's daughter. Basically my whole life, we've always had dairy. My dad, before he got married to my mum, was a sheep farmer, and they did that ever since the McGraths first migrated over here. Yeah, so I've always been involved in agriculture in some sort of way, whether it be through dairy. We've kept some sheep, we've got some beef as well, and I grew up riding horses as well.
Kirsten: 4:02
Right, so very much in your blood. Yeah, and did you always want to be a farmer?
Rachael: 4:08
Not really Growing up, I used to always go every weekend with mum and my sister to horse comps, and it wasn't until I was 17 that so we had a farm accident back in 2007 and we sold the dairy that we were currently milking in and we built a new dairy then in 2011. And from when that was built, I started doing work on the weekends, on school holidays there and yeah. So when it come to the school holidays, going into year 12, I said to mum I don't want to go back to school, I want to stay at home and work on the farm. And she was like, okay, well, you have to do some extra study then. Not that I don't think that she was too bothered, but she goes. I probably have to look like I'm making you do something, but yeah. So it all started from, yeah, when I was 17 and dad took me under his wing and, yeah, took off there.
Kirsten: 5:07
Can I ask what the farm accident was so?
Rachael: 5:11
a fella. His name's Ryan. He was living with us and working on the farm with the horses and he was like a big brother to me and he got on the quad with Laura on the back and drove out of our driveway with no helmet on in front of a truck and was hit and killed and yeah, just the court proceedings and everything thereafter that liabilities and insurances and everything. So it ended up being about three. I think mum said something like three million dollars in fines and stuff. That we just didn't have great legal aid at the time either, and we were milking 1,000 cows then and we had to sell all that and basically, yeah, start again with nothing. Well, we didn't have to sell all of the farm, but we ran beef and you know it wasn't paying its way, so that's why we had to then build the dairy again, go into more debt and try and make some money.
Kirsten: 6:06
I mean incredible tragedy and then to sort of decide to stay in dairy as well. That's a huge decision to have to make, and so you were only a teenager at the time, were you? Yeah?
Rachael: 6:19
I was 12 going on 13, and my sister was 14 going on 15. And then there's the big age gap with my little brother. He would have been about three year old.
Kirsten: 6:29
I reckon I heard your mum actually speak about this at an event and she was amazing in her raw honesty and talking about such a horrible experience and tragedy, and I remember it was the safety message was what she was really wanting to get across. Like you know, make sure you're sort of all okay there. So you really grew up while a business was struggling and trying to be rebuilt. It probably doesn't sell farming much to you and then, as you said, milk prices as well probably went down in that period. Is that the same period it went down, or were you a little bit older then?
Rachael: 7:11
I was a little bit older than when the milk price went down, yeah, and I suppose, like weather and stuff really plays a big part At that sort of time around the accident. I wasn't heavily involved in the dairy but, yes, it was our main source of income to fund us going to horse competitions and everything like that. So, mum, like I, get a lot of my strength from mum. She's taught us to be resilient and keep going and the biggest part like she did a few speeches and stuff was it's not only just about, like, the safety on farm, but it's making sure that all your policies and procedures are in place and that stuff the paperwork is very important as well.
Kirsten: 7:50
So, going back to you as a 17-year-old, I don't want to go to school anymore, I'm going to work on the farm. Is that how it went down? So you didn't finish Year 12?
Rachael: 8:02
Yeah, no, I didn't finish Year 12. I started with a Cert 3 through TAFE in rural operations and so basically I was able to pick a lot of my subjects, which was great. That's where I did AI preg testing. I did a bit of metal fabrication. I just wanted to learn and it was great sort of for the fact of coming out of school going like, oh, I don't want to go to maths class, I don't want to go to English class, but like learning stuff that I was really keen on learning and, yeah, trying to build a bit of a wealth of knowledge so that I could be somewhat of a help for dad. I studied that while I was working and it wasn't until I think it was about 22 and I decided that I wouldn't mind learning a bit more and my parents just sort of just did the day-to-day didn't have a lot of industry involvement. I started going to the West Vic Dairy information sessions and stuff like that and I found them quite interesting and that's where I met our farm consultant Janet. She's been great in like helping rebuild Janet Dumsney she is.
Rachael: 9:14
And then I signed up for RISD and did my Cert IV when I was in school. It wasn't a big thing to do RISD during school. I wish I probably would have had like, stayed in school to it wasn't a big thing to do risks during school. I probably would have stayed in school to do risks during that age period and I thought it was really great for the fact that I was then put into a dairy class, so all like-minded people wanting to learn the similar things Because I was then amongst it getting information, more information, like Dairy Australia. And then I put in for the Gardner Foundation New Zealand study tour and you know I got the place to go over there. There was about five or six of us and, yeah, if I hadn't have gone for my Cert IV like I wouldn't have even known about it, probably not until like later on or something.
Kirsten: 10:05
So I found not only was the study really good but the networking was really good as well yeah, I mean I suppose it could have been so easy for you to just continue on the farm and and work there. What opportunities did having that network open to you do you think, or even just different ways of thinking or doing things when you look back now?
Rachael: 10:31
Yeah, well, we got to do plenty of farm walks and see how other people do things and I know everything like when you go out on a farm. Everything they do is not going to fit your farm, but there's definitely bits and pieces that you can pick through and trial and error just to get a better idea, whereas if you're stuck on your own farm you're not really learning anything else from other people. And what I find really good about dairy is there's so many people that want to help you and do well, especially boost young farmers coming through. So, yeah, I got to. I really enjoyed, like my pastures and nutrition courses and like, obviously, the less exciting stuff of your OH&S, but it is very important when you want to go into business management or business ownership, you've got to have that knowledge behind you so now you've got your own jersey and swiss brown stud I understand.
Kirsten: 11:25
How did you get to to that? Where did that come up in your journey? They?
Rachael: 11:30
were always breeding to jersey when we started this dairy, because the semen is cheaper, really.
Rachael: 11:37
And then my brother, he was studying at emmanuel college and they were showing steers at the Melbourne show and then he'd come back and he's like, oh, I wouldn't mind getting a few jerseys to the show, like the local shows around here.
Rachael: 11:50
So really Leo started it and like we still have a couple of original cows but we've been doing it about seven or eight years now. He went along to the show I would stay home and milk the cows so that Dad could go with him, and to the show I would stay home and milk the cows so that dad could go with him. And then he was like, oh, rachel, like can you come along as well? Like we've taken a few extra head and wouldn't mind a bit of help. And I think what really like stood out for me was you know, it's really nice to milk cows and make money off it, but like you get a sense of enjoyment of milking cows, that really that you think really look good as well, and that idealistic sort of thing where you can milk a really good looking herd is great.
Kirsten: 12:30
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever heard a farmer say that that's so funny. I love it. You just like to be out there amongst the beautiful cows and the beautiful scenery.
Rachael: 12:41
I go out sometimes and I just look at them like, oh, that's a nice cow.
Kirsten: 12:47
But, yeah.
Rachael: 12:48
So I then got the bug and it started with I'd be to mum to know, could I just get 10 or 15 doses of some bit nicer semen? And then it sort of grew and grew and grew and now what we do is our bulls. I'll collect them Like we use Nationwide. They do semen collection and that works out much cheaper on the ones that I might not want to keep the calves out of as much and then breed my better cows to the good sex semen. So now my brother's moved to London and I'm just keeping the stud going.
Kirsten: 13:25
So how does that work with a family farm? Like, what's your role and do you all have defined roles?
Rachael: 13:33
So I would be so the manager, herd manager. I cover pasture, nutrition, reproduction. Dad runs maintenance and feeding out, but I set rations. My uncle is also on the farm. He does dairy maintenance and brings the cows in. My sister, she does the accounts and book work. And then we generally have a couple of backpackers to help me and dad. My dad is 71 and my uncle is 75. So I have to try and look after them. They do just keep going, but obviously they won't go forever.
Kirsten: 14:16
Oh, farming keeps you fit and healthy, right. And how does that all work with the family dynamics? Has that all worked quite well? And how does that all work with the family dynamics?
Rachael: 14:25
Has that all worked quite well, I think having the accident I think has been great to form a really strong bond with our family. I don't know. I mean, we've always got along and we do get along very well. We are great at communicating with each other. I think that's a really important point and we all sort of know what we want. Like my brother doesn't want the farm, I want the farm. My sister wants a bit of area for her horses, so essentially, like for succession, I wouldn't be just given it all because I'm the only one that wants the farm. Like it would still be split into three and until I could afford buying Leo's part. Like I would lease it. Like we've got all that sort of stuff laid out and the same with my sister and yeah, so is that. You know, just because I want it I'm not getting all the inheritance sort of thing.
Kirsten: 15:16
Yeah, that's good that you can have such open conversations so early on. There are so many families that just aren't having those conversations and then it's left to a moment in time when someone's died and it's all emotionally charged.
Rachael: 15:32
Yeah, and like it is very important because it's a lot tied up I guess, and that's generally when drama can be started and then, as they say, like when you you get partners, then that can cause a bit of pushing, pushing back and issues and stuff. So I think we wanted to make sure and the fact that, yeah, we had the accident, so it's sort of you know tomorrow's not guaranteed, anything could happen to anyone at any given moment. So the best thing for everyone to have a bit of security is to get it sorted early.
Kirsten: 16:04
And so what's your situation? Do you have a partner, kids?
Rachael: 16:09
I have a boyfriend, no kids. Then, yeah, my sister's married, she's got two kids, and then, yeah, leo's off gallivanting. Yeah, no, sir, I think I just for so long have just been married to the farm. Yeah, I'm 30 now and so long have just been married to the farm. Yeah, I'm 30 now and I'm like, oh gosh, probably should be thinking about doing something.
Kirsten: 16:33
Oh look, 30 is not old. You could go on. Farmer Wants a Wife as the farmer, yeah.
Rachael: 16:39
I did actually put in for that at one point, but it was the year they picked that Paige one.
Kirsten: 16:44
I think she caused a bit of yeah, I know, and they haven't had one since, so I think she's buggered it for me. No, no, let's advocate for you to be on Farmland's Wife, because I want female farmers, anyway. So tell me about your vision for the farm. Do you have yearly plans? Five-year plans? Can you tell me about your vision for the farm? Do you have yearly plans, five-year plans? Can you tell me about some of those?
Rachael: 17:07
Yeah, generally try and do yearly plans for the fact that we get our milk price at the start of the financial year and we can plan for that. We try not to plan. We have goals but you know, to sit at a certain amount of milkers like probably what we've decided is we can run is about 480. We have run 500, but just that extra 20 head, we just feel like it's just pinching a bit. And when you run the heavy stock amounts like that, small issues become big issues. It can be quite difficult to find milkers and stuff and if they're spending all of their days in the dairy then they're not really enjoying themselves. So we like to have a good environment and mix it up basically. But yeah, so in terms of goals for the farm, I am working on trying to buy bits as I go along so that when it comes to a point in time with the succession having to go forward, then at least I might have a little bit under my belt to begin with and then with the herd.
Rachael: 18:17
We still have a few crossbreds so we'll be working on getting a full stud herds. But now it's not just jerseys and brown Swiss. I have a couple of Illawarra's and then have a couple of Holsteins as well. So just keeping those amounts small, majority being jersey and work towards with the top herds in Australia and start getting awards and stuff. That's the aim. So have good production, good fertility, meat testing and everything like that. So get the data behind. We've got the collars on the cows so I can already get their activity, the heat rumination as well, and then we have milk meaters in the dairy so I've got a lot of information to work with so I can sort of pick and choose. I just probably have to be a bit harsher on some cows that probably should go. That I just probably like too much. It's pretty good looking you know, yeah, absolutely.
Kirsten: 19:18
So it sounds like you're really passionate about the genetics and that stud aspect of the business.
Rachael: 19:25
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, and every year they're getting more data for the cows and stuff. So it's just, you know, getting your head around everything.
Kirsten: 19:35
Yeah. Are there any other reflections you may have about women in dairy or words of wisdom you might have about someone who wants a career in dairy, particularly a woman in dairy?
Rachael: 19:48
Yeah, I think personally which is probably a biased opinion but women in dairy is definitely better for the fact that we're more maternal and you know we take a lot of care with calves in particular, like we've put on a good few backpackers and stuff, and you know you the men just try and like rush through jobs and stuff, but often it's the women that take time to make sure that everything's right, and so I think that's really good and a lot of workplaces will benefit from women in in their their business.
Rachael: 20:18
But yeah, there's so many people that that you can speak to and that want to put people on to give them the opportunity to see if they want to grow in the industry. But it's also it's not just putting cups on cows Like dairy farming is not just that. You can be in nutrition or agronomy, you can be in the factory or you can be like a contract calf rear or something like that. So it's not just, oh, I don't want to be in the dairy industry because I don't want to milk cows. There's so many more aspects to it.
Kirsten: 20:48
And you can somewhat control the hours that you milk, can't you Like? I've heard of dairy farmers doing it so that it fits the school run even.
Rachael: 20:57
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Like you just try and have it as close to 12 and 12, but so that we're not getting in super late, we will do sometimes 10 and 14 hours sort of thing, just as close to as possible. But yeah, and if you want to not get up super early and milk a bit later, but then you just milk a bit later in the evening, that's fine. I rather start early and finish early, so we have cups on at 5, 5.15. And yeah, and then at night we're home, if all goes to plan, by about 5.30, quarter to 6 sort of thing. And then, yeah, you break up your day in between we, yeah, run sheep and beef as well, so that makes a few extra jobs here and there. So that's what you do in between that and, yeah, paddock renovations and stuff.
Rachael: 21:50
There's always something to do. And generally you know if we're really busy, and then Dad will be like, oh, we have to bring in the sheep today, and I'm like, why did I get these? Because I own half of them. And I'm like sometimes I'm like, oh, what do I do half of them? And I'm like sometimes I'm like, oh, what do I do? But then it's great. You know a bit of diversity never hurt as well.
Kirsten: 22:06
So, and financially right, mixed farming I don't know that many dairy farmers who do a bit of that mixed farming, to be honest yeah, generally, if they're going to do anything like that, it might be growing out steers or something.
Rachael: 22:18
but steers take too long and the beef market is so well. I mean any market is so up and but I feel like beef gets the raw end of it a fair bit. So, yeah, we've got some marinos and some composites and so the marinos sort of cover the wool from the composites and then the composite lambs they sort of make up for the lighter merino lamb. I mean it wouldn't be the super fine wool or whatever, but we make enough to pay for the shears and get a little bit extra at the end of it, so we're not losing anything from them.
Kirsten: 22:53
From a business perspective, has that been a strategic decision, Like as in does it help when the milk check naturally goes down? Does it help you ride out those periods?
Rachael: 23:04
Yeah, no, it does. We're on a nine and three model, so three months of the year being spring, we get paid less because obviously we're supposed to produce more milk then. But the last couple of springs haven't been ideal. And then that's generally well, just before Christmas, when we're still seeing that low price is when we sell our lambs and it just helps sort of break up that bad time a little bit. And, yeah, like we've only got 200 head or a bit less than 200 head, so it's not like we're doing huge amounts. That it's taking up a lot of time. I worked out with Dad that probably out of the year it's probably about eight or nine days of actual work in between milking sort of thing. So it's not a lot of labour put in, they're sort of self-generating.
Kirsten: 23:52
And how did you learn how to like manage sheep and do wool? I imagine you're not out there shearing them yourself. Well, maybe you are, I don't know.
Rachael: 24:02
I have given it a go, but I've decided it's not for me. Yeah, so Dad grew up a sheep farmer and my uncle, so they've got all of that knowledge that, yeah, they've then passed on to me. And also, we slaughter our own sheep for our own consumption. So, yeah, we do that. Mum has a heap of chooks too, so we have our own eggs. Dad has a huge veggie patch, so we eat a lot of our own veggies. So we live a lot on the land, really.
Kirsten: 24:32
When the apocalypse comes, I'm coming to your house.
Rachael: 24:35
It'll be fine, we've got turkeys and everything.
Kirsten: 24:39
Love it. When you look at to the future and where you want to go and what excites you, what kind of knowledge opportunities or learning opportunities are there and what do you think about in terms of acquiring that knowledge? Right, because you can learn in many different ways. It's not about going to university necessarily, or doing a course. It can be, but what do you think about in terms of, oh, I'd like to do that or learn that If I could probably do my time again when I thought I couldn't leave the farm a few years ago I would.
Rachael: 25:15
I know I should have now and gone and worked other places. I've done a bit here and there, like when I can get away and a bit like international in Ireland and stuff, but I've never been able to go and fully probably work for someone, because it's always been like within my holiday time, so I don't really have holidays. I go and work on someone else's farm, really it's your holiday.
Kirsten: 25:37
You work at someone else's farm. Oh well, at least it's like you pay your way, exactly.
Rachael: 25:46
So, yeah, I think it's really important to go and work for other employers, that's not to say just jump around between jobs, like do a certain amount of time for someone and then go further. I look back now and I'm like, oh, I easily could have and I thought I couldn't leave then. But now I definitely mum's like no, you can't, you're not going anywhere. Now You're sorted. I was like, okay, fair enough. So, yeah, it's just between that.
Rachael: 26:11
West Vic Dairy, for example, yeah, they do information sessions and networking at them does help too. Like I've got friends that come over from Ireland and last year when they were here, I organized a couple of farm tours for them to meet and see their cows and stuff. So you know you can do plenty of that in your own time as well, because majority of farmers, yeah, are keen to to help you along and give you an idea of what they're doing, how they're running their business, and if there's bits that you can pull from it like that's great. Yeah, so I think that's also why, when I wanted to learn a bit more but I didn't want to get off the farm to do it is, I went to RISC and I did my diploma then after and I was able to just go into RISC once a fortnight and, yeah, still able to manage the farm and run the farm with Dad.
Kirsten: 27:04
I think it's really interesting what's happening with education just in general, about the flexibility that is kind of expected now, which is allowing people to work as well as learn at the same time, and that's partly because, like, cost of living so high, like it's really hard to just study, but it's taken a really long time, like when I think about education, to kind of get to that point of education can fit around you, not just you having to fit around them.
Rachael: 27:33
Yeah, and I think having well, probably COVID really helped making things go online a lot. Even, we are partnered with ProDairy, which is with the vet clinic, and they give information sessions and work really closely. It's actually really great. I have a WhatsApp group with a couple of vets and, you know, rather than having to ring them and get them to come out and plan that call out for you, I'm able to send photos and videos and speak to them fairly well straight away and get an answer with what they think is up with the cow, and they hold information sessions online, and so I think that stuff has been really good too to just you know it's there to use, so use it, sort of thing.
Kirsten: 28:14
You've done lots of speaking as well, which is exciting to see. I'm looking at your bio and, yeah, what are your sort of main topics that you like to speak about when you're invited to say? You know the Australian Dairy Conference or UDV?
Rachael: 28:28
Yeah, so when I spoke at the UDV that was about our trip in New Zealand. That was my first time really speaking in front of a big public, so quite nerve-wracking. But it's a lot easier to speak about the stuff that you know than what you're interested in as well. At the Australian Dairy Conference that was quite difficult because I was on a panel with two other people that had dealt with tragedy and resilience of keeping on dairy farming and stuff. So that was quite an emotional rollercoaster. Like I do definitely like talking about the accident.
Rachael: 29:03
It's definitely got its aspects of being difficult, but to make people aware of how quickly something can just change is quite yeah. Well, I know that if someone goes zooming around on the quad on the farm, like I have PTSD I'll be like get off that bike. Or if they don't have a helmet on, like you know, make sure that they're they're wearing it because yeah, it's, it can just be so life-changing so quickly. But, um, yeah, I like talking to people about what I'm doing on farm and I think, boosting the female in the industry sort of, because there isn't a hell of a lot. I got asked to do a paddle with agco there the other day. They were asking us to find someone, a woman in farming that uses agco products, and she goes. It was very difficult to think of lots of names and which I was quite surprised, because I do think that the females in the industry like growing. But yeah, obviously it's still still quite a low number in comparison to men.
Kirsten: 30:07
Yeah, and look probably women like yourself who are really running a farming business. Solely many women are, as you know, very much involved in the business. But sort of managing a business there probably still aren't as many.
Rachael: 30:24
Yeah, definitely, and I've been very lucky for the fact that my dad doesn't micromanage me. I still go to him and make sure that he's okay with decisions and stuff like that, but he's been really good and if I want to try something or if I learned something new, he'll take it on board. And there's plenty of people, even like other men in farming that you know might be working with their parents, that aren't allowed to have that opportunity. So I do understand that I'm quite blessed that way to have my parents that are ready to well. They have the ability to progress with me as such and help me grow.
Kirsten: 31:05
And what a fitting way to end. I think sometimes we can forget that our biggest teachers in life are often our parents. So thank you to Rachel McGrath for sharing her story and thank you to RIST for collaborating with us, and you can find a link in our show notes if you want to check them out. And thank you, of course, for listening. If you liked this episode or you think it can help someone else, then make sure you let them know. In our next episode you'll meet Dr Lexi Leonard, a city girl and vet who is now building a farm of her own, piece by piece. I'm Kirsten Dipperose and this is a Rural Podcasting co-production. I'll catch you next time.
