Were you born in a barn? Raising farm kids.
Show Notes
Is parenting on a farm different to parenting in the city? What are our farm kids missing out on... and do the benefits of farm life out way the drawbacks?
In this bonus episode we welcome the hosts of The Barnyard Language podcast, which is an American podcast, focused on 'real talk about running farms and raising families.' But don't be fooled into thinking they are cutesy farm ladies - these are a wickedly funny and slightly sarcastic pair.
Arlene Hunter is a dairy farmer from Ontario, Canada and Caite Palmer is a sheep/beef producer from Iowa in the U S.
While there are obvious differences between Australia, Canada and the US... when it comes to the rollercoaster of raising kids in remote areas, we have A LOT in common.
We talk about everything from postnatal depression and the baby years. Right up to succession planning and raising kids that are proficient in "city", as much as they are in "farm".
This is a Rural Podcasting Co production.
Interested in sponsoring an episode? Drop us a line on the Ducks on the Pond website.
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Caite Palmer: 0:04
If you owned a widget store making ballpoint pens or something and you were as obsessive about how it defines you as farmers are. That would be weird. It is ultimately just a business, and your family and your health should be a bigger priority than that.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:23
Hey, welcome to Ducks on the Pond, brought to you by the Rural Podcasting Co. Kirsten Diprose is here, and it's a bonus episode in which I'd like to introduce you to my new international friends, arlene Hunter from Canada and Caite Palmer from Iowa in the US. Together they host the Barnyard Language podcast, and I love that they call it Barnyard Language. Obviously, we have a certain language reserved for the sheep yards here. Seems this is a universal concept.
Kirsten Diprose: 0:55
Actually, in this episode, there are quite a few things that feel universal when it comes to raising kids on a farm, even if it's on the other side of the world. We talk about everything from postnatal depression and the baby years right up to succession planning and raising kids that are proficient in city as much as they are in farm. This is not a parenting advice podcast, but more an opportunity to listen to how other farm mums are doing it on the other side of the world. I should say, though, arlene and Kate have plenty of wisdom to share and both are wickedly funny. You'll love them. It's a bit of a different episode because I'm not really the interviewer here. Rather, it's three hosts sitting down for a chat, so I'm actually forced to reveal more about myself than I usually do. Let's begin.
Caite Palmer: 1:49
I'm Katie. I live in Iowa, which is the center of the United States. Basically, I live in the only hilly part of Iowa. The rest of it is very flat. The area where we live was missed by the glaciers though, so there's like a tiny little corner that's really hilly, and I like to differentiate it because people assume that it's like the area of Iowa where I grew up, which is just like a pancake for miles and miles. My husband and I have two small children, who are recently seven and almost six, which they will tell you very proudly all about. We raise hair sheep for meat and we also raise beef cattle. We farm with my husband's parents, who've got about 300 acres, and I also work remotely for a tech company full time, and the podcast keeps me out of trouble.
Kirsten Diprose: 2:45
Did you say cat company Tech?
Caite Palmer: 2:48
Tech, oh tech, not cats. That would be very cool. That would be very cool. Cats would be very cool, although our company mascot is a cat, but she's like a cat-octopus hybrid, so that's different.
Arlene Hunter: 3:01
There, yeah, that makes sense, and Arlene tell me, what do you grow to?
Kirsten Diprose: 3:06
just steal something from Barnyard podcast.
Arlene Hunter: 3:09
Yeah, so I am in Eastern Ontario. So if you were looking at a map of Canada, there's a part that kind of dips down into the US and we're in the section of the country where most of the population is really so, if you know any of the Canadian where most of the population is really so, if you know any of the Canadian cities, I'm between Toronto and Montreal, so in the center of where a lot of the people are. I'm not too far away from the city of Ottawa, which is our capital. So that's the general area where I am on my husband's family farm so he's sixth generation on a family dairy farm. So we milk cows. We milk about 80 cows and then raise all of our own replacements for those animals.
Arlene Hunter: 3:52
So we have usually around 180 to 200 animals on the farm. We grow corn and soybeans and lots of hay to feed all those animals, and then we're also growing a bunch of kids. So we have four of them. My oldest is 18 and she's away at university right now, but we'll be back for the summer because she is cow crazy and wants to work back at home with us in the summertime. So that's fantastic and she's studying agriculture at school and then at home I've got my three boys who are 16, 13, and 9. So we've had some birthdays recently. So the slight pause there because I have to remember how old everybody is, but that's what's growing in our household.
Caite Palmer: 4:32
I think too, to clarify for anyone who, like myself, was unsure of Canadian geography Ontario does take up half of the US border width with Canada.
Arlene Hunter: 4:44
Yeah, we're about 18 hours drive apart.
Caite Palmer: 4:46
Just because it's in Ontario doesn't mean it's close to anything else. That's what I've learned this year.
Arlene Hunter: 4:51
Yeah, we've got some very big provinces, so yeah, there's lots of geography within each one, but probably similar to Australia. There's definitely that seasonality here right, where we have periods where you're not growing anything, you know you're still looking after livestock, but a lot of our summer months are spent putting away food for animals and for people, so that in the wintertime, there isn't that production. Where I am today, for example, I know your listeners are Celsius like us, so it was minus 12 today, which is not abnormal, so it definitely means that our barns and structures for animals are a lot different than the types of sheds or maybe just a roof that you might require. Our animals do need to be inside in the wintertime, because they can't. Dairy animals anyway, and some beef animals can survive it with some windbreaks and a little bit less of structure over them, but for dairy animals especially, and pigs and chickens, they definitely need to have barns that are heated even or not always heated, but at least really well insulated, but also have that airflow right, because our animals also need to have fresh air all the time so they don't get sick when the weather fluctuates. So, yeah, it's definitely a different climate that way.
Arlene Hunter: 6:02
The other thing with Canada, though, is that most of our agricultural land is really close to the US border, because once you start to go further north, there's not really much topsoil. Katie was talking about the glaciers. They took off most of the topsoil in a lot of the other parts of Canada once you move north, so the agricultural land is also in the pockets where there's the most people, which presents unique challenges, for sure, because Canada is actually. Only 6% of our land base is suitable for agriculture, and that's also in the places where most people live.
Caite Palmer: 6:36
So thanks Canada. I guess if anyone really wants their topsoil back, you can come to Iowa and get it. Although now it's all eroded, so you'll probably have to go to Louisiana to get it at the other end of the river.
Arlene Hunter: 6:47
So I think, in part because of our proximity to the US, the government has allowed us to keep trade barriers up because they want to make sure that we can feed ourselves. So the dairy and the poultry sector are still protected and we supply something like 95% of our own dairy poultry and eggs to the country because they keep foreign imports out of those industries. Size is smaller, our farms are smaller, but it also means that those rural economies that kind of happen around farms are stronger too, because more people are still farming, rather than a handful of huge farms or us importing all of our milk from the States where they've got dairies with tens of thousands of cows. Versus I think our herd average is like 85 cows. So we're actually about average for Canada, but not anything like what's in the US.
Kirsten Diprose: 7:46
Yeah, super interesting. We could do a whole different episode about regulations and how to farm and farm sustainably and in an economically sound way In Australia. 55% of the Australian landmass is used for agriculture, so it's a huge amount, but in that there are large parts that are quite dry, so there are some massive stations. So it's a huge amount, but in that there are large parts that are quite dry, so there are some massive stations, and that's why you end up with 55% of the landmass being for agriculture.
Arlene Hunter: 8:14
Sure, yeah, and those are the ones that I've seen where they've got helicopters, where they're using those to round up cattle or sheep or things. But yeah, your stocking density is so low that you're just covering such huge areas.
Kirsten Diprose: 8:26
Yeah, there's a TV show and it's really cool. It's called Outback Ringers. But yeah, they use helicopters and they literally have to go and find their cows and then they get out into the national parks and then they have to go and find them, which is completely bizarre to how we live, but that's part of the landscape of farming in Australia to how we live, but that's part of the landscape of farming in Australia.
Arlene Hunter: 8:50
I know. I looked it up today, katie, and it said that the US is 52% of the landmass is agriculture. So, yeah, your two countries would be similar, with Canada having a lot smaller still. Lots of landmass, but, yeah, more forestry and tundra, lots of ice.
Kirsten Diprose: 9:01
I think. Something we also share in terms of our podcast, though, is talking about being women on the land and farming, and part of that, we were all mothers as well, and that's a big part of what we do, and farm life shapes, I think, how we parent and what opportunities our kids have, so I'm really keen to chat to you about that. Are you both from farms?
Arlene Hunter: 9:24
originally I was yeah, I was the kid who was raised on a dairy farm and swore I would never marry a farmer, especially a dairy farmer, because they never get any time off. And then, of course, I did. You know, as you get older you realize that there's a lot of good in that lifestyle too.
Caite Palmer: 9:42
I grew up on a hobby farm in a rural area outside of a larger college town a pony, chickens, that sort of thing. So I was interested in ag but didn't grow up in any sort of production ag and then married a farmer.
Kirsten Diprose: 9:56
I married a farmer. I grew up in the city. I grew up in Sydney and moved to Melbourne for my job and was happily being a radio and TV journalist for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, abc. And yeah, was in a bar in Melbourne and met a farmer. So it wasn't my fault, I wasn't going around and hanging around on farms. You know we've been married. It'll be 11 years this year, so it's been a while now, which is great, and I really love farm life. But I'm certainly not a natural when it comes to things on the farm. There's a lot of moments that I go oh what?
Caite Palmer: 10:39
am I doing? We've actually been married 11 years this spring, too and I went looking for it, though. I met my husband online on a website called Farmers Only, which is a dating site which is pretty clearly named. Very few women on there. If you're looking for a husband, you might have a good chance. If you're looking for a wife, mom is Arlene. Yes, yes. Arlene, though, was just minding her own business.
Arlene Hunter: 11:06
I wasn't trying too hard to get away from it. I don't think, because I went to the main agricultural university. I wasn't taking agriculture, but I still was in the place where all the ag students hang out, so I wasn't trying that hard to get away from the culture.
Kirsten Diprose: 11:20
And there's a name in Australia for people who are seeking out farmers and they call them hectare hunters. I love it, which is not a very nice thing.
Caite Palmer: 11:29
We have something similar here for rodeo riders, which would be buckle bunnies, which I think is pretty similar, that's awful. It is.
Arlene Hunter: 11:37
These are really sexist terms. Right Before we start talking too much about the parenting side of things, which I do really want to get into, to start talking too much about the parenting side of things, which I do really want to get into, can you tell us what the name of your podcast means, because I just love it?
Kirsten Diprose: 11:51
Oh yeah, it would not be immediately obvious to your audience and it's not immediately obvious to a lot of Australians too. It's called Ducks on the Pond, which I discovered is some sort of baseball reference in America when I was looking up to see if other podcasts were called this. And there's a few other podcasts, but they're about baseball with this name. But Ducks in the Pond is an old shearing shed saying from the 1800s in Australia when the men would be shearing sheep and if they saw a woman approaching, when the men would be shearing sheep and if they saw a woman approaching, they would say ducks on the pond.
Kirsten Diprose: 12:32
So it was code to stop swearing, make sure you're behaving yourself. Don't say anything you don't want a woman to hear because a woman's coming. Yeah, that's very cool. So we talk about everything, but from a very rural women's perspective. And can I throw the same question back at you guys? What do you talk about and who have you featured from a very rural women's perspective? And can I throw the same question back at you guys? What do you talk about and who?
Caite Palmer: 12:50
have you featured. We actually met through a parenting podcast and I know as a new parent I was very I struggled a lot that a lot of the ag podcasts were about production or were very religious, were for a very specific audience that I was not really a member of, but the parenting podcasts were all felt very just order food from Uber Eats or get DoorDash or Amazon will bring it the same day. None of this applies to me. Or even if we were just talking about it the other day that I was on some cloth diapering forum and people were saying I don't want poop in my washing machine and it was like there's always poop in my washing machine. Baby poop is not going to be anything new and exciting in here. From mice, oh, from cattle, from poop.
Kirsten Diprose: 13:45
Oh, from cattle Lots of poop From clothes that come in.
Caite Palmer: 13:49
Yeah, I'm already washing stuff covered in poop on a regular basis.
Kirsten Diprose: 13:53
I don't separate according to whites and colors. I separate according to farm clothes and not farm clothes.
Arlene Hunter: 14:00
Yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah, how dirty is it.
Caite Palmer: 14:04
It's anything with diesel and zerk grease, like heavyweight grease, and then poop and then not poop or diesel. No petroleum, no poop.
Arlene Hunter: 14:15
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, the kind of good clothes.
Caite Palmer: 14:17
Three loads, yeah, yeah. All over the world we're still I guess we're still missing a lot of the Southern Hemisphere. English speaking countries.
Arlene Hunter: 14:34
Yeah, yes, yes. One thing that Katie and I have tried to be conscious of is that a lot of the parenting spaces are female focused. A lot of the parenting spaces are female focused, and we wanted to be more intentional about the fact that parenting is not just a woman's job, and that we want to be a parenting podcast that both men and women and non-binary parents could listen to, that it's not just women's work to be looking after the kids, and we're also trying to be pretty intentional about making sure that we're talking to LGBTQ farmers, farmers of color, first Nations farmers, so people who are part of this industry that don't always get represented is one of the things that we're trying to be more conscious of and seeking out guests that represent a wider array of the people who are actually doing this work, because there's lots of different people out here doing this.
Kirsten Diprose: 15:28
Yeah, that's fantastic. And can I ask about your name? I understood it Barnyard Language Podcast, but explain it.
Arlene Hunter: 15:38
I guess our thought was that we sometimes use some barnyard words. We maybe don't always yell out that there's ducks in the pond and we're not always all that ladylike. So, yeah, just the idea that we want this to be a place that maybe some of the filters are off, because when we drop our guard a little bit and are willing to, not that you have to swear. But we always tell people when they come on that if swearing is part of their vocabulary you don't need to censor yourself, and sometimes that just frees people up to talk in a way that is more natural to them and hopefully that allows them to actually be authentic and talk about the things that matter. Because that's what we're trying, I think, same as you. We're trying to create community.
Arlene Hunter: 16:17
That's, I think, probably all of our goals is to have people who are feeling isolated and alone, whether that's because they're rural or because they're a new parent or there's no one else in their area. That's farming the way they do or that's farming at all. I think probably in all of our countries it's less than 2% of the population now is in primary productions. If you're in a place where you're one of the only farming parents, it's really easy to feel like you're the only one out there doing it. Easy to feel like you're the only one out there doing it. So to feel like you're not alone and that there is a community of people out there that's similar to you and is doing similar things, makes a difference. Even if you can't actually see them at the school pickup, you can listen to them while you're waiting to grab your kids.
Caite Palmer: 16:56
We found so much that, leading by example, of being open and being willing to be the first one to walk into a room and say I'm struggling with X, Y and Z, that it gives other people so much power to open up about their own lives, to see that Because in real life quote unquote nobody wants to walk into the church basement and be like I'm really depressed after having a baby, and this is way harder than I thought it was going to be.
Caite Palmer: 17:24
I'm really depressed after having a baby, and this is way harder than I thought it was going to be, and nobody in my house has had clean socks in a week, Like nobody.
Caite Palmer: 17:29
Nobody wants to be that person, but once somebody does, and I think especially not being face to face that our listeners don't have to walk up to us and admit that they're struggling, and I think it gives people so much more power and space to be able to talk about things and to be able to talk about good things too, because I think there's so much like everyone is struggling, which we are, but it's at least in the Midwest and I think it is probably true in Canada and Australia and everywhere else in the world too, Women especially and I think especially agricultural women are taught very much not to brag about things and that being proud or being happy or being proud and happy is unseemly, it is unladylike and for as hard as we work, we should get to talk about when things go well and when we're happy and when our families are happy, and we can hold space for all the times that things are going badly and still be happy about things.
Caite Palmer: 18:36
And I think it's just really important to give people permission to just be out there doing what they're doing, which was a really long answer.
Kirsten Diprose: 18:48
Oh, great answer, though it made me think of a friend of mine who's a psychologist and her name's Steph Schmidt and she did this campaign recently. She's on a farm, and about using the word and instead of but, and the idea that we can have difficult things in our lives as well as really joyful things in our lives, as well as really joyful things in our lives at the same time. And it was about finding the, and that you can be feeling overwhelmed with harvest and kids and all of those things and loving living in the country and enjoying the space and freedom that your kids have to grow up in. And I constantly feel those things. I look out and I think, oh, it's so different to how I grew up. I'm a really bookish person.
Kirsten Diprose: 19:35
Partially because of how I grew up, it wasn't always safe for me to go out and about in the streets. Where I grew up, it was in a sort of rougher part of Sydney, but where I live, like, my kids can just have this great life and ride dirt bikes and climb trees, whereas I had to be, like, taken to a park and watched to be able to go outside and it's just, I think, how amazing. But yeah, then it comes with a struggle. So the and is a really lovely reframe that I use when I'm feeling something that it's okay because, yes, sometimes life does suck, but there's still those and moments of the good side too. Yeah, that's right.
Caite Palmer: 20:17
I think one of the big reframes that's and I love that and versus, but one of the ones that really has reshaped the way, I think, is the difference between something being common and something being normal. We hear so much that you know postpartum depression is normal. It's not normal, it's common. It happens to a lot of people. It's not normal, me included. Yes, same, but it's not normal implies that we should just put up with it. That's, it's just normal. This is the way we do it no.
Arlene Hunter: 20:52
Yeah, and that you should just, yeah, just deal with it. You don't need to go to your doctor, you don't need to talk to anyone about it, because it's normal.
Caite Palmer: 20:58
And it's the same thing with struggling with family or with farming or whatever that we say things are normal. When it's not, it's common. Maybe all of us are putting up with the same shit, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable to be doing.
Arlene Hunter: 21:12
And the things that used to be normal that we are changing are because they might have been normal, but some of those things were unacceptable. Right, the types of things that we're trying to work on in terms of making sure that our kids are safer. They talk about the fact that, oh, I never wore a seatbelt and I survived. Sure, you did, but lots of people didn't, so that's why we've got seatbelts. Yeah, what was normal before doesn't mean that it was acceptable. And that's the same with yeah, when it comes to mental health or keeping our kids safe, those types of things. Just because we've decided something is normal doesn't mean that we need to accept it or that it needs to continue that way. We can try and make changes.
Kirsten Diprose: 21:53
Particularly in Australia. There was a time where no one would have ever spoken about it. It just was hidden away. Now people will speak about it more. But have we got to the stage where we're changing aspects of society so that women don't have to suffer with it in the first place? And I'm hoping we're getting there? We're not in Australia yet, but we're certainly talking about it and women are saying, oh yes, actually.
Kirsten Diprose: 22:19
And it was a wonderful friend of mine who had a baby a year before me. She could see that something wasn't 100% right with me and she told me how she had postnatal depression and that made me realize that it was okay to have it. Because I looked at her and in my eyes she's fun, she's great, she's all of these amazing things, and because she said she had it, it made it okay for me to have it. And it's a weird thing to explain, but I felt like I didn't associate with anyone with depression. I'd never experienced it before and I thought I don't sit in my room being sad 24 seven. I'm not a depressed person, but when someone who was like me was reflected back to me, that's when I realized ah okay.
Caite Palmer: 23:08
It seems like if it is such a common thing and it's amazing, the minute you start talking about it, people just come out of the woodwork who are dealing with this and I think everyone thinks that they're the only one who's ever struggled with bringing a small screaming pooping not really that cute, doesn't sleep thing into their life. I will feel okay about the way we respond to it when it's addressed, the same way that we do screenings for, say, gestational diabetes, or the same way we talk about morning sickness that it is just a common part of pregnancy and of bearing children, but it is not a normal thing that we should just ignore.
Kirsten Diprose: 23:59
And the and is good for that too. Right, Because you can have postnatal depression and love your baby, and I think parenting is a perfect example of the and space where you'd never go back. But sometimes it's just really hard.
Arlene Hunter: 24:16
Yeah, that's right. I know we often talk about that transition from no kids to one. Right, because it feels like people are always asking, if you have multiple kids, what was the hardest like going from one to two or two to three, you know, like when people are thinking about adding to their family. But I've always said that zero to one was the hardest, because you're changing everything about your life, your body, your relationship with your partner. If you have a partner, your relationship with your extended family changes and I don't know why it seems like we don't talk about it that much. I feel like now, if I go to a baby shower, that I'm almost scared for the person because you don't want to say too much, because they're excited about having a baby, but you almost want to say, can we talk?
Caite Palmer: 25:02
And there's not really a tactful way to hand them a card that says and there's not really a tactful way to hand them a card that says when you say my baby will just go with me to X, y and Z, it's not going to happen, okay, we'll see you later. You know, weird things will come out of your body. No matter how that baby comes out of your body, you will not believe the stuff that your body is capable of. Let's just put it that way like you know what?
Kirsten Diprose: 25:27
my sister-in-law did. It perfectly right. So she wrote me the most beautiful email and, because she was living in england at the time, she sent me a beautiful pack for the newborn of clothes and stuff and then sent me an email of congratulations awesome, okay. Now and I think it was just before the baby was going to be born was like, told me how many proper maternity pads to bring. She was just like you're going to bleed a lot Because I didn't realize this is not just a period, this is yeah, things are going to be leaking.
Caite Palmer: 26:02
Those cotton pads are not enough, even I had a scheduled C-section with both babies and they told me there'd be bleeding. But it didn't occur to me that if a kid didn't come out that way didn't mean you weren't still just going to gush blood everywhere for a week or whatever. Didn't even occur to me. And people are like obviously, obviously that was going to happen. Obviously it wasn't obvious, because I don't think I'm that big of a moron, but it didn't occur to me and no one at the hospital seemed to say that much about it.
Arlene Hunter: 26:34
No, because they assumed somebody else had told me. Yeah, and everyone talks about the sleep deprivation. But then you get into that, into the first year, and people start asking if the baby's sleeping through the night when they're about three weeks old. Often men, I will say, were the ones who would say things like that, and I had four kids and none of them slept through the night till they were over a year, and maybe obviously some people get those miracle babies who sleep through earlier. But the level of sleep deprivation is just something that you just can't imagine and just when you think that they're on a schedule, then they're not anymore. You can't predict it anymore. It's gone. That was a thing they did last week.
Caite Palmer: 27:14
There is a reason. They literally use it as torture. It is literally illegal to deprive people of sleep because it is torture.
Kirsten Diprose: 27:24
And then we've got the hormones as well, like after you've just had a baby. So there's a whole recipe there that you really have little control over. It's no wonder that it's a really difficult time for me. I look back and, to be honest, I was really hard on myself. I thought that it was my fault that I had postnatal depression with my first. So my second it was all fine. I knew what to expect Again. That change of life had already happened, so it was good, and I made myself better prepared in that second time around. I didn't expect that I had to do it all, and that's why I crumbled Not in the beginning, it was more like six months in because I had been thinking that a good mum is able to just do everything, from the cooking, the cleaning to everything else socially and look after this.
Kirsten Diprose: 28:17
Yeah, crying, screaming, not sleeping, the light of a baby that I very much loved and love. Today he's nine. And it was only when you break that fallacy that you understand. No, you're not meant to do it on your own, and I just moved to the farm. So my husband and I got married and I still lived in Melbourne and was finishing up my job there, and I only just moved to the farm, a few months before I had the baby. So here I was in a completely new community a few months before I had the baby. So here I was, in a completely new community. And I look back and I'm much kinder to myself and I think, of course, but at the time I thought it was my problem.
Arlene Hunter: 28:56
My first was a crier and I remember thinking that I had done something to create the child that was not portable. Like you couldn't just take this baby in a car seat and go have coffee with a friend. Like she made strange with people before she could probably even focus her eyeballs. She did not like other people, she did not like me a lot of the time. I don't know, she was just a very angry little thing and it just, yeah, it felt like I had done something to deserve it. I don't know and it didn't make. It doesn't make sense and looking back, none of that makes sense. But when you're with someone who just cries all the time, it's that torture too. You can't, you feel like you can't get away from it and could barely get through a run to the grocery store. Often she'd be crying by the time we got to check out and then it was that mad dash home.
Caite Palmer: 29:47
I think if I was going to sorry Arlene, if I was going to write a law, it would be to get rid of anyone ever saying again you will spoil that baby or do you have a good baby? Because some of us were lucky enough to get easy babies, but they're babies. This concept of a good baby, yeah, they're all doing their best. Oh, five-month-old is out robbing banks, It'll spoil. It's not a dairy product, it won't spoil, it's a baby. I feel like it's these older generations that we hear saying we never went to therapy and I'm like, yeah, but now you go on about stuff like good babies and whether they'll spoil Maybe you should have and, honestly, is anyone going to?
Kirsten Diprose: 30:32
it's not on your resume or your CV that you slept through from five weeks old, or whatever it is. How is it a marker of the baby being good, or is the mother being good? It doesn't matter. Apparently, my mum tells me I didn't sleep through until I was three. Look, I think I turned out fine. I know more mature ladies who will still proudly reel out what age they toilet trained their kids. I don't know. It's not a marker.
Arlene Hunter: 31:01
Yes, that was an achievement. I was the first one in my neighborhood. Toilet training was my least favorite part of parenting, still to this day, oh my gosh.
Kirsten Diprose: 31:11
But, katie, you have two really close in age, so you really would have had two little toddlers running around. Mine are less than two years apart, they're 23 months, and that was tricky enough.
Caite Palmer: 31:22
Mine are 16 months. It took almost four years for the first one, and so when she was six months old, the doctor said it might take another four years. You should start trying now. She was a surprise after we'd given up after how many years. I think if I had any time to think about what it would be like to have two kids that close together, she'd be an only child. We wouldn't have had a second one if I had thought about it. As far as logistics, if you have one in diapers, having two in diapers isn't any worse, and as they're getting older it's been amazing because they're best friends, they have the same friends, they're interested in the same level of activities.
Kirsten Diprose: 32:02
Yeah, and I'd say the same is true for me, with that just under two year gap. It's great now. I'm loving this age, this seven and nine year old. They're fun, they're sweet. Yes, of course there's challenging times, but they're much more independent, obviously, and I'm loving that. And it's easy because they are at the same, pretty much at the same phase of life, arlene, though you've got four, so you've got all sorts of phases of life happening all the time.
Arlene Hunter: 32:30
Yes, yeah, we definitely stretched it out more. Our first three were closer together. The first two are just a little bit over two years apart, and then number two and three are two and a half years. And then there was that period where we weren't sure if we were done or not. So we had those three for a while and then my husband was. He could go either way, but we were both from families of four and I just ended up having that feeling that we weren't quite done. So, yeah, number four is a bigger stretch than the rest.
Arlene Hunter: 33:00
But I also felt like he was my. He's going to be babied probably for the rest of his life. He's nine now and he just started putting his own socks on in the morning, because he was Don't tell me that. I told him when he turned nine he was going to have to start putting on his own socks, but it was. The other three were in school and he was quote unquote my easiest baby. But also my standards were so low at that point that everything felt fine. But yeah, I felt like he was the one that I appreciated the most.
Kirsten Diprose: 33:34
Both my kids. While planned as in, I wanted to have two children, I never planned or tried to have a kid, which I'm sort of at that age. Now that I've got my friends who don't have kids, some of them are really having a tough time with fertility, being either in their late 30s, early 40s and yeah, I don't envy that at all. That must be really tough.
Arlene Hunter: 33:54
And I know that we've both had episodes on our individual podcasts about those struggles, especially for rural women. Right, and Katie knows that firsthand but it's not that easy. There's not a fertility clinic right around the corner. If you're traveling hours sometimes to get those services, it's that much more challenging for people who are in rural areas. Kirsten, as someone who grew up in the city, one thing we thought we would talk about is what it's like to raise kids in the country, and if we feel like our little country mice are missing out on anything, or if it's the city kids who are worse off. Mice are missing out on anything, or if it's the city kids who are worse off. So you have the perspective you already talked a little bit about, like having to feel that you had to be a bit more homebound in the city. You couldn't, didn't have the freedom that your kids do. Are there things, though, that you feel like your kids are missing out on? Being out in the country, where you are, and not being the having the same childhood as you?
Kirsten Diprose: 34:43
The first thing I thought of is being streetwise, and I wonder what it will be like when they're teenagers not having court trains and buses, except for when they've been organized by a school or whatever. And even when they were younger I used to stress when we were in the city because they didn't walk on roads much and I was just terrified that they just dart out. So that's one thing from a safety perspective, I think in the city there's more exposure to culture and diversity. I have to say where I live very white, whereas where I grew up was a lot more culturally diverse. My neighbors growing up were Italian, maltese and Chinese, lots of different people. And I think, oh, they're not going to get that. It's not as easy to go to museums and things. So that's the downside that I can see. But there are also many pluses. But what about from your experience that you can see that maybe you're concerned about?
Arlene Hunter: 35:46
When you were talking about street smarts, I had taken our kids. There was a day off school a little while ago, so on those days when I know that the city schools don't have the same day off, I'll sometimes take them in to go to a museum or something. And we went to this museum and I think the most exciting part for even my teenagers, was riding on the escalators, because they're just not used to like the 13 and 16 year old were doing loops on the escalators. I was like let's go look at some of the exhibits over here. Yeah, I think that the diversity piece is huge. I know there's at least. Now I feel like our schools are doing a better job of at least talking about other cultures. I feel like when I was growing up and I was in a rural farming community as well we just learned about your Christmas and Easter, and it wasn't a religious school, but those were the holidays that everyone had in their homes and that's what got talked about. But at least now there is a bit more awareness of at least talking about other types of holidays. Our school system is doing a better job now of doing specific courses about First Nations culture. So I know in high school, the one year their art class is all First Nation artists and First Nation artistic techniques, or grade 11 English is only First Nations writers and poets, and so I think there is a better across the board. People are getting better exposure. That doesn't mean you're always necessarily meeting people from those cultures, but at least there's an awareness of it. So I think that is getting a little bit better than maybe when I was young. But yeah, definitely the culture and diversity piece is hard. I know my, like I said my oldest is off at university and she's an Aggie, so she's with lots of other rural kids, and during her frosh week, like their first week of activities, I got a video from her and she said we're learning to ride the bus. And so there was a whole group of them, a bunch of these farm kids who you get a free bus pass with your tuition, and so they decided to learn how to ride a city bus, and so all these country kids were, some of them, on a city bus for the first time. Yeah, they figure it out eventually, but not maybe as early as their urban counterparts. I think.
Arlene Hunter: 37:48
In terms of school, though, our school system is supposed to be equal across the province, but I think that that doesn't always happen. I know in our area it feels like post-COVID. We have options that weren't there before, but they're maybe not ideal. Last year, for example, my daughter was in her last year of high school and she was going to take physics and there weren't enough kids in the school to do a full class, so they were offered an online option, which, in theory, yes, you're still getting a physics class, but if you're struggling, that's a hard enough course to take on its own and then to try and do it online and stay motivated to keep up with the homework. When there's not even necessarily a teacher, there might be someone who's marking your work, but it isn't always all that interactive and it's not the same as going to a classroom and being able to talk to your peers and all that kind of stuff.
Caite Palmer: 38:37
We have already talked about things like making sure they get practice driving on interstates, because the nearest four-lane road is more than an hour away. The nearest four-lane road is more than an hour away. It is very important to me to not raise adults who cannot handle being out in the rest of the world, just being able to function with things like buses or escalators, which my children are also very excited about.
Kirsten Diprose: 39:01
That's a good point, though, because sometimes you do meet people in the country who really don't ever go to the city, really don't aspire too much. Now sometimes you do meet people and you just go. Your dreams don't have to be small because you live in the country.
Caite Palmer: 39:20
I think for me, a lot of it is that I deeply hope that my kids choose to be here. But if they choose to be somewhere else as they grow up, I want them to be prepared for that. And even if they do choose to be here, if they want to go on vacation somewhere that is not rural Iowa, I want them to feel competent and confident and safe and excited to go out in the world. I feel like we know so many people who are so unsure of how to deal with not here that they avoid doing things because it is not here.
Arlene Hunter: 39:59
Yeah, sometimes that fear of whether it's fear of urban areas or a fear of people that they don't know, that kind of stuff can hold people back. And it's not that, like you said, there's nothing wrong with living in these places and we choose to live here and we're lucky to live here. But that doesn't mean that our cities and other places don't also have things that we can learn from and that we can enjoy. And sometimes the best part of going away and experiencing other things is the coming home, just the same as sometimes people from the city want to come out to the country and experience our lifestyle. That's all part of and I think that also leads into that appreciation of so many people in ag spaces say things like oh people, don them know where their food comes from, or be approachable if we're so sheltered and unwilling to converse with people who aren't part of our direct community.
Kirsten Diprose: 41:08
Sometimes farmers can have this thing and more male farmers, and I can only speak of Australian farmers but they have this idea that everyone should just know what to do on a farm or should know how to move stock, and then they almost talk down to people and it's really. I think it's mean. It's not that they're stupid or they're, and I know it's a no brainer to you, but they've never been on a farm before. That was me to you, but they've never been on a farm before. That was me. I grew up not having any exposure to farms, not having an uncle or anyone. I didn't know much about how food was made. So don't be mean to people who don't know.
Arlene Hunter: 41:48
Yeah, that's right, and it would be the same. You know I don't have that much experience, say, using public transportation. You know it would take me a little bit more work to go into the city and figure out which train to take or to get to, which bus to get on, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid, it just means that's not part of my everyday. And it's the same way the other way around. Yeah, we can't expect people to know things that are not part of their everyday life, but if we're open to sharing those things with people and not assuming the worst of them because they don't know how to do that thing, then that's where the best exchanges can happen. Yeah, be gracious.
Caite Palmer: 42:22
I feel like there's a lot of things where it's not reasonable to expect someone to just know something, but by the time you're an adult you should have some ability to not be a jackass. That's a good standard, yeah, should have some ability to not be a jackass. That's a good standard, yeah, and I feel like that's on you a lot more than it is on them to know where their food comes from or whatever else. I feel like that's a better baseline of behavior maybe.
Kirsten Diprose: 42:50
The flip side to that of people in the country, because while I say that sometimes farmers, I think, can be a little bit mean on that front I also think that most country people are less likely to be you say I can't say it in my accent a jackass. We'd say dickhead. Right, that's the same thing. I reckon you find more in. There's a higher proportion in the city that are fall into that category than the country. I think country people most of them are just like genuine, upfront. What you see is what you get, which is why I love country people and I am one now. I've been there for, like I said, 11 years and will be there for the rest of my life. I love the country but, yeah, I don't want my kids to be like that. I don't want them to grow up thinking that because they've got some job title, it makes them better than anyone, or just some of that silly BS that goes on in the city. That just doesn't happen in the country.
Arlene Hunter: 43:54
I know this is sometimes a hard question to answer because your kids are young. Do you want your kids to farm? Would you want your kids to farm?
Kirsten Diprose: 44:02
Only if they want to. Yeah, it'd be great if they want to, but if they don't, then I want them to do what they want to do, what they're good at, what makes their heart sing. That's what I want them to do, and I actually really want them to move away for a time, whether they want to go to the city and study or work, or whether they want to go to another rural area and you know Jackaroo on a farm in the Northern Territory and like work for someone else. And I want them to have this other period of time where they get a lot of experience. And then, if they do come back, then great, and they have made that choice to come back, knowing a little bit of what the world and other ways of living looks like. What about?
Arlene Hunter: 44:44
you? Yeah, I think we're definitely on the same page. I think working for other people is huge. To only be in one place and to just assume that the way mom and dad or grandma and grandpa or whoever has done it is the only way doesn't. I don't think it serves anyone all that well. I would hope that all of my kids would go away, and, yeah, if any of them wanted to farm, I think that's great, but I think this lifestyle is way too hard if you don't love it. If they don't really want to do it, it's not for someone who's even half in. There's too much volatility and there's too much hard work if it's not something they're really passionate about. Yeah, I almost skew to the side of trying to convince them not to, and if they end up in agriculture, then I guess that's the way it will be. Katie, I know your kids are little, but what are your thoughts?
Caite Palmer: 45:34
I would love for them to come back A I want them to go away at some point because I want them to be here, because they want to be here. I feel like we know so many folks who have come back or have come back sooner, or who are farming differently because their parents there was no, there was never a plan that didn't involve them coming back and taking over, that there was no exit strategy, no succession, no ability for the parents to retire, nothing that didn't depend on somebody coming back, and I feel like for a lot of families it ends up looking almost like the siblings are drawing straws about who has to go back and farm with the parents, and that's horrible. I don't want to live like that. I don't want my kids to live like that. I don't want to do what that does to the relationships between parents and children and I don't want my kids here because they can't hack it somewhere else.
Kirsten Diprose: 46:33
I want the farm to be a gift, not a noose around their neck, and it really depends on how they are like, how they turn out and what they love to do, and we're not going to know right now.
Kirsten Diprose: 46:43
But yeah, you can't say that they have to, or I think we've all witnessed it with other people where the farm is. They had this pressure of I'm the last of six generations and if I say I don't want to do it, then I've killed the family legacy. I don't want that on my kids' shoulders at all. I want them to also and I suppose this is succession is such a huge issue but whichever way it works out, I hope I want my two sons to be. I want my two sons to be good with each other. I don't want ever to have money come in between a sibling relationship I want when I'm dead and their dad's dead. I just want they've got each other. That's a bigger gift than a farm, no matter how big the farm is. I think I just would hate family relationships to ever be ruined by something material.
Caite Palmer: 47:36
My husband and I were lucky enough to get to go to a farm retreat several years ago and getting the time to really prioritize what our priorities were about that. For us, keeping our family together is the highest priority and keeping that relationship strong is the highest priority. Then keeping the farm land in the family, Then keeping the farm operated by the family that you can have levels of what looks like success for your family. And farm is just a business. Farm is just a business. I think people get so tied up in it being everything that gives your life and your family any value. And if you owned a widget store making ballpoint pens or something and you were as obsessive about how it defines you as farmers are, that would be weird. It is ultimately just a business and your family and your health should be a bigger priority than that. Perfect, that might be a great way to end it. You can come for me if you want. My kids are the fifth generation on this place.
Kirsten Diprose: 48:49
We're the third generation and there's a saying about the first generation builds it, second one grows it and the third one ruins it, or something. Anyway, I'm hoping that's not us.
Arlene Hunter: 48:59
So for our Barnyard Language listeners, check out Ducks on the Pond.
Kirsten Diprose: 49:04
Thank you and make sure you check out Barnyard Language. We call it like shearing shed or sheep yard talk and we say what happens in the sheep yard stays in the sheep yard.
Caite Palmer: 49:14
Yeah, I had already have that discussion with my five-year-old son about words that we use on the farm do not go past the driveway, baby Because we got a letter home from school and when I heard him say what he said, I realized exactly who he learned it from and it was me.
Arlene Hunter: 49:31
Oh, it was you. I was hoping it was at least your father-in-law or something.
Kirsten Diprose: 49:40
No, it was you.
Caite Palmer: 49:40
I was hoping it was at least your father-in-law or something. No, it was from mom. I love that you tell this to us right at the end of a parenting advice podcast. So, kirsten, a last moment from us. One of the benefits of the company I work for is that we get free counseling sessions with different parenting experts and life coaches and whatever. And I had a session with a woman and she asked what my hobbies were and I said I do a parenting podcast. And there was just this dead silence as she looked at me and I finally said I didn't say I was good at it, it's like a cautionary tale. She just started laughing and I was like I'm not giving out advice, it's a what not to do advice from my part.
Arlene Hunter: 50:16
Let anyone be a parent. Yeah, there's no qualifications here, there's no license or anything.
Kirsten Diprose: 50:22
That's it for another episode of Ducks on the Pond. What delightful women. I had such a good time chatting to Arlene Hunter and Kate Palmer, although when you're an Australian talking with people from overseas, I find it really hard to listen to my own voice. I feel like the Aussie accent sounds like a goat bleating in comparison to their lovely US and Canadian tones. Make sure you check out the Barnyard Language podcast. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. It's something a little bit different to our usual episodes. Our next series will be back in a couple of months. Thank you for listening. You can find us on Instagram. I have a ducks merchandise shop opening very soon. Check out the ducks on the pond website. The merchandise will be coming out in July, which I'm super excited about. Just practicing my Canadian before I head over to utilize my free accommodation there. My name's Kirsten Diprose and this is a Rural Podcasting Co production. How fun is podcasting. You get to meet people from all over the world. If you have an idea for a podcast, then I can help. Check out my business website, ruralpodcastingcocom. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you soon.
